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10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On
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6. We Tend to Exaggerate About the Other Guy Cyberpunk author Neal Stephenson wrote in one of his books - and this was probably just moments before the character was split in half by a robot weilding a samurai sword - that the only real sign of intelligence was the ability to detect subtlety. Anybody can memorize facts. But you remain a clumsy, intellectual oaf of a person as long as you keep looking for sheer black and white in every situation. That's what's so frustrating about politics, the way everybody wants to paint the two parties as angels vs. devils. And if you just said to yourself, "Yeah! Those evil ________ are always trying to polarize us that way!" then, guess what, you just did the same thing. So please, please, please, when we get into these atheist vs. Christian arguments, can the atheists stop acting like Christians want to abolish all science and live in grass huts? Just because some Christians reject the science on evolution, doesn't mean they reject all science. I mean, give me a break. America has been full of Christians since the day we invaded it, and has been a scientific and technological freaking superpower. So please stop waving your arms and warning that if Christians get their way, we'll all be sacrificing virgins on altars and replacing surgeons with priests. And Christians, will you please, pretty please, with sugar on top, stop implying that the atheist lifestyle is one long drug-riddled blood orgy? You take a country like Japan, where just 12% of the people say religion is important to their lives and yet have some of the lowest crime rates in the world.  Japan
 And if we agree that we tend to exaggerate about the other guy, can we also agree that... 7. We Tend to Exaggerate About Ourselves, Too If you're like me, there's this weird process that happens when you encounter somebody who believes the opposite as you, especially when they're really pushy about it. You actually go the other direction. I secretly think the Yankees are good enough to win 80 games this year and maybe make the playoffs, the other guy snorts in my face and tells me they'll be lucky to finish last. I roar back that they're going to win 100 and take home the title. It's like that other guy is so irritating, I want to position myself further away. Or maybe it's like haggling over the price of a used car, you start low so that once the compromise happens, you'll be closer to your end than his. It's often the same thing here. It looks like this: "I believe the Bible is true." "There is no evidence that this one religious text is any truer than other texts like it." "EVERY LETTER IN THIS BOOK IS ETCHED DIRECTLY FROM THE HAND OF THE ALMIGHTY AND ANY ONE SYLLABLE CAN REDUCE ALL OF THE WORK OF ALL THE WORLD'S SCIENTISTS TO RUBBLE!" "YOUR BRAINWASHED DEVOTION TO A RIDICULOUS BOOK OF SUPERSTITIOUS LIES HAS DESTROYED CIVILIZATION AND KILLED BILLIONS!!!!" In reality, there are very few Christians who do or even try to follow the Bible exactly, including all the obscure rules about church women staying silent and hatted. Word of God or not, the faith changes, adapts with the times. That is, in fact, the entire point of Christianity. Jesus was a reformer, and set that precedent. It continues to this day, it's what I like about it.  Now Christians hate to admit that, because it opens the door for the other guy to say, "See! If it's not the word of God then you admit it's all a big pile of fly-ridden crap and that atheism is the one true belief system!" So, the Christian digs in and pretends they've never experienced a moment of religious doubt in their lives. Conversely, atheists like to pretend they're islands of pure, rational thought in a sea of wild-eyed craziness. But we all have a little crazy in our world, and we all depend on some fantasy that floats outside the boundaries of cold reason. Atheists still tell their girlfriends they "love" them, and not that they simply feel a psychological artifact of a biochemical bond generated by the mating instinct. They still refer to their "mind" as if it's something more than chemical switches. And remember what we talked about with "justice" and "right" and "wrong." None of it is scientific. Even weirder? Free will. Remember, to a neuroscientist, free will is every bit as real as the Tooth Fairy. They can watch your neurons light up at the moment you make moral decisions, can trace the exact electrochemical pathways. If there is nothing beyond the physical, then your ability to choose your actions vanishes along with God and Heaven and the angels. It was an atheist professor who told me that, in a class on ethics. Two days later, he told me if I was ever late to class again, he'd knock 100 points off my grade. To deter me from being late in the future. As if I had the free will to be late or on time. So we all got those contradictions, that's my point. None of us are 100% on board.  You don't have to admit this one out loud. I know you lose debate points for it. Just keep reading if you agree. 8. Focusing on Negative Examples Makes You Stupid That guy, the "God Hates Fags" guy who runs the protests I mentioned back on the first page? Fred Phelps? His church (Westboro Baptist) has become world famous for those dickish demonstrations. Which is amazing, considering that the "church" is made up entirely of Phelps' family and a few friends. That's it. And they're world famous, mainly because atheists looooooove to hold them up as an example of what dicks Christians are. When you need an icon of intolerance, they're as useful to have around as Hitler. And please don't come at me with the, "Christians hate Phelps because they know he's saying out loud what they're secretly thinking! They secretly hate homosexuals just as much!" Please. The White House and Congress and the Supreme Court are full of Christians, always have been. If all Christians thought like Phelps, American gays would be in concentration camps. There'd be nobody to stop it.  Smearing all Christians with Phelps' bile is a cheap shot, like saying all atheist schoolkids are potential Columbine shooters. At worst, that kind of stereotyping is dehumanizing and divisive. At best, it's a recipe for mediocrity. I compare myself to the worst so that I don't have to try to be the best. I can spend all day on my sofa, playing Wii Boxing and helping no one, and I'll still be a better man than Phelps. But I think we've got to shoot higher here. It's just another form of hypocrisy, and if there's one thing we can agree on, it's that hypocrisy sucks. We're almost done here.  Now, if only we can agree that... 9. Both Sides Have Brought Good to the Table Okay, bear with me here. Christians, I'm not saying that atheists have brought good things to the world by telling people not to believe in God. I'm talking about the thing that drives atheism, the philosophy behind it. I'm talking about rationalism. I'm talking about the philosophy that started saying, centuries ago, that it's not demons that cause disease. It's microbes, and genetic defects, and chemistry. And that we can find those causes and we can find cures. Cures in the physical world, without consulting the priest, without going through a ceremony. Think about what I said before. If atheism is wrong, it's only wrong in that it takes rationalism too far, beyond the edges of the universe. But you don't have a problem with the rationalism itself. There are people you love who would not be alive without it. You can pray that grandpa's heart holds out for another year, but rational thinking invented the pacemaker.  So even if you detest atheism, you can at least agree that it grew out of something good. Atheists. You hate wars. You hate genocide, you hate iron-fisted dictators who line up peasants and jump over them with monster trucks. You hate it when corporations steal your money, and when fat suburbanites will let a million Africans starve before they'll donate. You hate guys who treat women like lifeless sex dolls, guys who lie and leave. You hate all of that, because you know that the ability to have empathy for other humans (even those who don't benefit us) is the only thing that separates us from the cockroaches. And when that fails, it's terrifying and awful in countless ways. In the middle of a religious debate, you may say that religion and superstition are the prime evil in human society. But you look behind it, and you'll find that other monster is bigger. Humans doing the opposite, acting like animals. Treating other humans as nothing but engines for their own pleasure. Religion - whether it was handed down by God or just invented by a bunch of guys- serves mainly to fight that. It makes humanity sacred, and the moral law moreso. You can hate the methods it uses, you can say that there are other ways, you can say that it only replaces one cancer with another. But most of what it's trying to get you to do - treat other humans as sacred and put morality above your own impulses - you already do. And you criticize religion mainly for not doing it.  You're going to come back here and say that you're not criticizing that part of religion, the concept of things being sacred, or morality, or any of that flowery stuff. It's the intolerance and manipulation and superstition and ignorance you hate, the zealots demanding evolution be stripped from the textbooks. But from the Christian's point of view, when you attack one, you attack the other. The story of Christianity (or mythology, if you prefer) is bound to the morality. Humanity is sacred because were were planted here in a six-day act of divine intervention. Lying is wrong because God said so. You should work to preserve a marriage because God made that bond sacred with Adam and Eve. So when you attack that mythology, Christians hear you attacking the morality along with it. And that is why they fight so hard for it. Seriously, what did you think the creationism thing was about? It's about keeping humanity sacred. They think that once you dash the idea of a created humanity, then there'll be nothing to stop strong humans from treating weak ones as cannon fodder. And logically, there won't be anything. You can't defend morality with logic. Once you explain it away as an artifact of the genetic herd instinct, well, hey, we've got the genome mapped out, right? Couldn't we just cut that morality gene right out of there? If you're saying, "But that would be retarded! The world would go down the toilet if we did that!" Guess what, that's just your morality gene talking. Your objection is merely based on a genetic disposition toward social behavior, and can be ignored with the proper genetic changes.  Do you see how weird this gets? There's no logical conclusion to it, it just gets more and more strange. So what's their motivation to go that way? After all, you know as well as I do that there are two kinds of people who attack Christianity: those who love rationalism, and those who just have a knee-jerk reaction to being told what to do. You've got people who are right for the wrong reasons, and others who are wrong for the right reasons, and some who are right for the right reasons and others who are wrong for the wrong reasons. It's like all my friends are with me on the beach, looking out at the ocean. Half of them look at the water and say: "This is Oceanis, the living Blue God! He is sacred!" While the other half say, "Here is a convenient place to dump our sewage." The truth has to be somewhere in between. Right?  Whew. Last one, for the people who are still reading. Can all zero of you agree that: 10. You'll Never Harass the Other Side Out of Existence Remember when I said that, when somebody comes on too strong, no matter what they're selling, we tend to run the other way? I mean, sure, the "God Hates Fags" guy has changed tens of thousands of minds. But not in the direction he intended. People are not convinced that way. The sarcasm, the disdain, the laughter. It makes you feel better, and rallies your friends, but it does exactly nothing to change minds on the other side. Conservatives may like to read Ann Coulter, but nobody else does. No, in reality, if changing minds is your thing, there's only one way to do it: Lead by Example. There's a thing the church has been doing for centuries, that I don't think it can do any longer. It goes like this: "Jesus is the son of God." "How do I know that?" "Because if you don't know that, then you will burn in Hell for eternity." No. Uh-uh. If you want people to live their life in a certain way, based on a certain fact, you can't substitute a threat for evidence. You have to lead by example. Atheists, same thing. you want to show me that atheism is the key to a balanced, satisfying, confident life? Show me. Trust me, if they introduce a new energy drink tomorrow and I observe that everybody who drinks it suddenly can dunk a basketball from their knees, I'm going to notice. So will everyone else. That drink will be unstoppable. So if you want to criticize the Christians' intolerance, then be tolerant. Show them how it's done. Shame them with your tolerance. You won't have to say they're awful. They'll look awful by sheer comparison to you. And don't show up in a room full of Christians and start making fun of their taboos, immediately talking about boobs or whatever, as if the only reason people adhere to a rule is out of fear of experiencing the awesomeness of breaking it. You've got taboos, too. All of you. Things you don't like to see or hear in polite conversation. This is the internet, I can show you the pictures. Be tolerant. Lead by example. Both of you. And don't think of it as a tactic to win converts. Think of it as common courtesy.  |
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There would be just as many wars and disputes in the world if there was no religion. Religion is not the reason people fight and argue, the Ego is, wich is mankind's largest disfunction. The Ego is what makes us not want to be wrong, "My god is right not yours". People have killed other people because the keyed thier car. Someone identified himself with his car so much that when the paint job was ruined he murdered!!! The Ego! Religion is the face that the Ego has adopted. Without religion a war would be fought over for something as equally retarded. Patriotism, Religion, Family feud, it's all Ego. Another example, the statement "I am Christian" the important part is the "I am" Identifying with christianity and not saying I believe in Christianity. For the record I believe in Catholocism.
Absolutely awesome article. By the way you described you're religious background and subsequent "semi-return", I think we're on the same boat. You really completely nailed all of the ideas that I'd like to convey to all of my "overloaded with smug" atheist friends.
Wow, reading that was...nice, solid article. Eshto, even if Wong's definition of atheism doesn't meet your personal standards (no offense, but it meets mine, and I identify as an atheist), this still has plenty to say.
It's all point of view. Just remember that. Great article.
Deep down, I'm likely one of the many others who felt this was fair, insightful, and heartwarming, but unfortunately I disagreed with a few things. On the bright side, it's too damn late to pick through it all. I'd just like to say that it feels like this was written as a "Both sides aren't going away, so the best we can do is just get along right?" plea. Makes sense, and you did it in probably the best way possible. Fantastic article.
However, I think a necessary distinction should be made between the religious/spiritual/dualist impulse and the faith in doctrine. It's hard to generalize about religion, and why shouldn't it be? Nowadays everyone has their own "personal god," so think this distinction is important.
I'm completely fine with whatever metaphysical beliefs one has to make them feel consoled in times of grief, or like their life has some greater purpose, or like there is some intelligent order in the universe (I would however still disagree and debate about anthrocentrism and fate, but this argument is somewhat petty compared to the really important stuff... like federal policy). This kind of "religion," I'm more than okay with. A dualist mindset is innate, and has helped produce art and our sense of morality.
It's when you anthropomorphize your beliefs a little too much that it becomes a problem. Say you think this "intelligence" in the universe has intentions. Say you think it has doctrines and rules. Say you hear its voice in your head. It's here when we too easily drift from "vehicle for conscience" to "borderline schizophrenia." It's this anthrocentric projection we must avoid, because if we let the "faith impulse" take us TOO far, it can drive us AWAY from innate human rationality and morality (i.e. Abraham willing to slay his son Isaac for his faith) and to ... well, probably the Westboro Church.
Thank you. It's heartening to see the number of thoughtful comments, as well. Religions may promote things I don't like (like mysogyny, for instance) but a religion isn't a person. I have very dear friends who are quite devout, and a mother-in-law who I love that is incredibly religious. But none of them try to convert me; they just live their lives as best they can. They're great examples, not just of religious people, but of human beings in general. Whatever got my friends to be awesome people and helps keep them going, I'm all for it. And they seem to feel the same way about me and my beliefs.
This disagreement isn't going to be "won" by either extreme; they just polarize the other side's views and make it that much harder. Finding middle ground is the only solution I can see, and that has the best chance of happening if people can be honest with themselves. This article is a great way to do so.
Wow. I was just put in my place superhardcore. Lately I've been so frustrated by my why-don't-they-get-my-logic mindset, while still understanding that "they" have the same mindset, so what do I do? I loved the tolerance theory at the end. Calling someone a dick just makes you a dick. If everyone ignored the dicks, there would be LESS dicks in the world. If we could spend all our energy on something more productive than hate for the ignorant, everyone would generally be more tolerant and happy. This put my mind at peace. Now this article just needs to spread virally, please.
I've been questioning my religion lately and this article actually helped me with my faith, Thank You.
I think some people misunderstand the article. It was NOT "We're All Equally Wrong". The mentality of it was more within the "Hey, let's try not acting like dicks today" picture with the cat in the hat and... you get it.
Diamonte said:
"...one could say that an atheist making that claim is also impeding human advancement by being less accepting of his fellow man."
And so could a theist. I know you know that, I just felt like pointing that out. Neither side is justified in being intolerant. It's not one side or the other that causes world conflict. It's the general inability to simply allow other opinions to exist in your presence that causes our problems. And I'm sad for that.
I just found this one checking for old lists i haven't read in the 2 years i've been monitoring this site...
turned out to be the best one I ever read here. I guess this text just turned me from a radical to a moderate, compassionate atheist.
Thank you for this. Just... thank you. Entertaining, thoughtful, and an excellently concise treatise on living well -- whether or not you intended it to be so. There are a lot of things here I'll be thinking about as I move on through my life -- hopefully as a person other people can be proud to know. Heh.
is it at all possible for anyone to leave a comment here that isnt a huge block of text?
To say that the religious are impeding progress, is like saying all teenaged, African-American males tote guns around. It's simply not true. To say that those practitioners of any religion (or religion(s)) are impeding scientific progress is - if looked at in a psychological viewpoint - an attempt to further a personal vendetta based on opinion, and not solidly placed in the holds of statistical proof. Let's not forget the physicists, microbiologists, chemists, etc. that study in the fields of their respective scientific endeavors, then attend church - or any other religious gathering, depending on religion - on Sunday - or Saturday, whichever you are inclined. Broad generalization is another mistake that is universally synonymous with warfare as well. So, if taken in the context of a biased opinion, one could say that an atheist making that claim is also impeding human advancement by being less accepting of his fellow man.
I will have to agree on some things with Skepacabra, but I beg you to be more tolerant, as those who are religious, no matter how mind-numbingly stupid their beliefs are, no matter how much they have destroyed and set back humanity, believe they are doing the right thing. It is all a matter of education. They have to be taught that their beliefs are wrong and irrational, and are impeding progress. And Atheism has never stood in the way if morality. Except, we can accept that people have a sense of morality without having to have received it from god. We can actually believe in humans enough to realize that everyone has a sense of morality, just some choose not to do what they know to be right. Everyone knows what is right and wrong, they just have a hard time doing the right thing. Besides, I don't know why you make such a big fuss about morality and the rules of society when these are all simply human creations that can be changed or eliminated at the drop of a hat. Yesterday it may have been okay to alienate gays, tomorrow it is a crime to alienate gays. Rules and morality don't exist, they are molded to the convenience of the current world leaders. I have thought long and hard and have come to the conclusion that society, and human life in general, is pointless and therefore there is no need to respect it. The whole Earth is just a tiny chunk of rock floating around in an infinitely large expanse of other galaxies. We are tiny, ignorant organisms with unbelievably short lives and no purpose in the universe. The world was made out of gases and rock, has existed for 4.54 billion years, and in anywhere from 3 to 7.5 trillion years, our solar system will cease to exist, and absolutely nothing will have happened.
This is just a classic example of false balance. Pretending all sides of a disagreement are equally wrong when they're obviously not in a token gesture to bring unity is absurd. The author doesn't get it at all. I consider myself an extremely rational person and I celebrated Falwell's death just like I celebrated Saddam's death. I didn't picket any funerals. The man was an enemy and a detriment to society. So I'm happy he's not around anymore. That's not "devaluing life." Nor is it overly romanticizing the value of life, regardless of how repulsive that life was lived. Some people's deaths should be celebrated because they were simply miserable people.
And while no one would argue that atheists are just as capable of doing terrible things, I invite you to present a single case of someone ever doing terrible things "in the name of atheism." Nobody died because people were too rational. And it's ironic that you brought up exorcism in your picture because exorcisms have killed many people.
I also take issue with the notion that atheism is "legitimately offensive" to theists. Atheists have every reason to find religion repulsive. It motivates female oppression, homophobia, wars, child rape, and countless other evils in the world. But merely doubting the claims of the religious is not a legitimate reason to be found offensive. Not even close.
Next, we're not exaggerating about the religious. Nearly every major scientific breakthrough for thousands of years has been met with dogmatic resistance from the religious. They even destroyed the Library of Alexandria, setting back the human race for a thousand years. There's Galileo, Darwin, Einstein, Hawking. More than half the nation rejects evolution and the big bang because they've been fed misinformation about it and it directly challenges their worldview. And tens of thousands of kids each year join Ron Luce's "Battle Cry" Movement, which is a lot like that Jesus Camp movie. And the vast majority of the county is looking forward to the end of the world and praying it happens in their lifetimes. There's little doubt that if atomic weapons do get into the hands of the deeply religious, they will unmake our world.
And finally the WBC comparison, which you falsely label as particularly radical. They preach the exact same message as Pat Robertson, only Robertson has a television show with an audience of millions and they just picket a few funerals. Yet Robertson's mainstream and they're just fringe nuts? Um, no. Wake up!
good article
i love this article...SO MUCH.
haha. i dont care how old it is; it has a lot of good points. im a Christian, but I'm not a Bible-bashing on the head kind of Christian. i have quite a few friends who are atheist, and although sometimes im saddened by it, i don't try to make them think any further of it. everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and every side of religion or belief has those who are so close-minded that they feel like forcing it on others. :/
Technique: Not that I don't get how irritating and patronizing it usually is, but witnessing (or, you know, harrassing non-Christians, depending who's doing it) is the expression of one of the most morally justifying, and consequently easily abused, pilars of Christianity: if you go to hell, I, as a Christian, am responsible. Meaning those of us who aren't Fred Phelps feel compelled to make up for his s**t.
What I'm wondering is, why the compulsion to tear down someone's beliefs, as you put it? It doesn't hurt anyone else if I believe in God, and it may profit me a great deal (Socrates)--anything that systematically deals with and disposes of fear of death, frees me up for the business of living.
I love this article. It's not comedy, but it is great. All the arguements you make are correct. And people often forget the shades of gray. When people say 'Christan', sometimes they think extremists or of one sect. However, I'm a sect of Christianity that doesn't do a lot of things in general. Great point.
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Not to be a joiner, but I also thought this was great.