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boonmeister
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« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2008, 06:28 PM »

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Have you read much of The Register's coverage of Wikipedia?

Argh.  I hate the register's wikipedia coverage.  They hone in on messed-up stories and use them to draw conclusions about all of wikipedia.  That's like deciding chicago is terrible based on the fact that someone got hit by a car there.  This is the best article about wikipedia ever written.

I'm going to suggest that The Regsiter's issues are more with the politics of the "High Ups" in Wikipedia than with it as a source of information.
Bear in mind that I have no problem with Wikipedia as a starting point for research, as I've stated before, it's just that if the stories contain even a kernel of truth then they debase the whole value of a resource I feel can/could be very useful.
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The Evil Sloth
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« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2008, 07:54 PM »

As a student myself, I know that some teachers at my high school are vehemently anti-Wikipedia, and some won't let us use the site for research even if we don't cite it in our paper. They give us the obvious explanation of "Anyone can edit it, so it's unreliable". Then something occurred to me. Sure, most anyone can edit an article if they want, but that doesn't mean they are going to. Because you know you can edit Wikipedia, are you going to? What loser goes "Hahahaha! I'm going to spend three hours changing every major fact in this article!!!" only to have it reversed ten seconds later.

Teachers at my high school make it seem like Wikipedia is some unorganized social get-together of people who think they know something.

Tlogmer,  your article should be standard reading for all teachers. Nice job.

When I was a teacher, I was vehemently anti-wikipedia. This was, however, largely because the areas I taught weren't technical and the 'facts' were much less important than the analysis of the writing. Or to put it another way, there are maybe a dozen - at most - commentators on Nietzsche who are worth reading. However there are literally thousands of ill-informed college students and graduates who have opinions on Nietzsche, all of which are, as a rule, extremely suspect. Hence, the wikipedia article on Nietzsche has little gems like this:

Quote from: wikipedia
Nietzsche?s works remain controversial, and no real consensus exists on their meaning. The interpretation of his works seems shakier than the interpretative literature on most other major philosophers. One can readily identify some key concepts, but the meaning of each, let alone the relative significance of each, remains contested.

Which is patent nonsense. There are excellent treatments of Nietasche's work; Heideggar and Kaufman leap out as great examples.

Wikipedia also cites Morgan as authority for the proposition that 'most commentators consider Nietzsche an atheist'. To begin with, Morgan's text is 60-odd years old and Morgan is a minor, christian scholar with an obvious bias against Nietzsche's claims. It's a terrible authority for a position which is untenable; most rigorous contemporary scholarship posits that Nietzsche was a theist, though certainly an unconventional one.

These misconceptions exist because Nietzsche is a popular philosopher - there are lots of people with a non-academic, or not serious academic interest in his work - and there are not enough serious Nietzschean scholars to rectify the misconceptions; or at least they're not editing wikipedia. The great tragety is that, I suspect, an enormous number of undergrads taking introduction to philosophy courses are going to read that page and come away with some fundamental misunderstandings about Nietzschean philosophy.

And it's not just this topic; a few years ago I set a paper on Natural Law theory and had to fail half a dozen students whose research was heavily influenced by the wikipedia article as it, again, contained fundamental errors about the subject matter.

When it comes to Technical articles on Wikipedia's I assume, as a non-trained person that they're a relatively helpful overview of a topic. However, when I examine articles on subjects that require a high level of analytical ability - philosophy, literature - the articles are of a very poor standard.
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« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2008, 07:59 PM »

Well that effectively killed my point. Still though, it isn't like every major article like that is creeping with giant inaccuracies like that for that long. Most of the big ones we use for research get reverted soon or are locked sometimes.

For example, a hugely-viewed article on George Bush only has a "View Source" tab which means non-registered users can't edit it. I know it might happen, but I largely doubt someone is so committed to vandalism that he/she registers an account just to do it, which can easily be blocked.

My teachers are still wrong.
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kelvinc
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« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2008, 08:47 PM »

Claim: the worst thing about Wikipedia in its effect on college students is not whether it is a reliable source, but its popularity has elevated a tertiary source as a conclusive source for research.  Any self-respecting academic should, in their work, be citing primary or close secondary sources in the first place.  Using encyclopaedia articles as sources is, at most, high school level.

Thoughts?
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« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2008, 08:55 PM »

It's more complicated than that.  Technically textbooks are tertiary sources, but through various channels and the credentials of the author, they maintain a higher level of credibility (at least in the sciences) than wikipedia does.  Textbooks may not be explicitly peer reviewed, but if there are glaring technical errors, those sorts of things become known about it.  Unless there's an expert editor associated with a wikipedia article, you don't get that effect.
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« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2008, 09:10 PM »

I guess what I suggested may be more applicable to the humanities than the physical sciences (with social sciences being somewhere in between, as usual).
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« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2008, 09:51 PM »

I teach middle school, and I allow Wikipedia as a reference material. I do compare it to a print encyclopedia.  And while college level text books are fine, middle and high school level are terrible. There's no academic prestige in writing books for grade school students, and the lower vocabulary seems to make the authors leave out all sorts of important information.  I absolutely detest the Georgia Studies book I've been given, and refuse to check it out to the students.
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Tlogmer
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« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2008, 11:17 PM »

Does anyone mind if I copy a few of these responses back to the blog again?  It beats the hell out of not having any comments, but it is also nakedly using the forums for personal gain.
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« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2008, 11:18 PM »

(And there is seriously a wall between wikipedians and non-wikipedians.)
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« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2008, 07:20 AM »

I can't claim that my comments show any amazing level of perception but you're welcome to use them as you wish.
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The Evil Sloth
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« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2008, 07:42 AM »

I'm happy for you to use mine, if you like.
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« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2008, 08:40 AM »

(And there is seriously a wall between wikipedians and non-wikipedians.)


The very fact that people who edit wikipedia call themselves "wikipedians" is pretty illustrative of why this wall exists. The farther inside the wikipedia circle you go and the more this attitude becomes apparent.

This has had a somewhat chilling effect on many folks who encounter articles in wikipedia that are very porrly done but come under one of the wikipedians aegis. Try and edit one of those into order and your first taste of wikipedia will be a sour one indeed.

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« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2008, 10:25 AM »

I was just using the term as a shorthand -- and I think you might be misunderstanding the reasons edits aren't sticking -- do you have any specific examples?
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The Furlinator
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« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2008, 11:34 AM »

Go ahead and use my comments, Tlogmer.

Also, Kathana, you are the coolest teacher ever.
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