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Rory
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« on: November 02, 2009, 01:44 PM »

Just finished The Guardian, and with a tip from Devlindesade I used Gimp to make a summary pic without using MSPaint for the first time.

http://www.cracked.com/funny-777-the-guardian/
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MikeSC
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« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2009, 02:28 PM »

If you removed the specifics of the controversy section (ironically, most of these are about the Guardian taking an overly right-wing stance in the face of popular opinion...) and history, I would have no idea you were describing the Guardian.

It's deeply dishonest, which would be okay if it were a satire, or funny. But it's just a strawman hatchet job.
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Rory
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« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2009, 03:49 PM »

If you would like to voice some particular objections and be willing to hear my response I'd love to hear some specific complaints... lets do this via private messages though.
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MikeSC
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« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2009, 12:47 PM »

I don't see why it needs to be in private messaging- my main problem is how it isn't about The Guardian. It's about your politics. The only things that identify it as being about The Guardian are the bits you've taken from Wikipedia or wherever about those controversies.

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The Guardian is a newspaper and Internet News Page that is dedicated to far left causes and is read by self-hating rich people. Basically the British MSNBC.

No it isn't dedicated to far left causes.



"Jews cause economic collapse" and that whole "Big government" thing. It's plain that you do not know your subject, and are merely latching onto something you've seen be identified as vaguely left-wing in order to launch a strawman against the left-wing.

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   1. The Guardian beleives that an uber-strong Government is needed to lord over people to protect them from their own foolish ideas and dreams.
   2. Only snobs read The Guardian for the political stuff. These snobs share the Guardian's view of government, with the exception that they themselves wish to run the government one day.
   3. The term "Guardian Reader" has come to mean a person of leftist views in England, used by Tories as a slur and Labour members as a boast.
   4. The Guardian Reader cannot accept the fact that individuals are responsible for the crappiness of their own lives.
   5. It is a tightrope walk to stay in the Guardian's good graces... just ask former Messiah turned anti-christ Tony Blaire.
   6. None of the above matters because the only reason 99.9% of readers read the Guardian is because of its excellent Football (soccer) coverage.


No, no, no. More political strawmanning, coupled with assertions that come out of nowhere yet aren't funny. Labour members don't use "Guardian Reader" as a boast at all. And turning against Tony *Blair* is hardly evidence of anything. He was wildly popular early on, he fell from grace. That's not about the Guardian at all.

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We here at Cracked have no problem with anyone's political views, provided they keep them to themselves. Or at the very least you come out and say something like "I am a die-hard Republican so I think Sarah Palin is actually pretty not retarded." However, we do have a slight problem when obviously biased political hacks try to pretend they are moderates "I am a moderate but it is obvious to my neutral self that anyone opposed to Obama's health care plan is a racist."

Follow your own advice. And quit with the strawmanning "Obviously biased political hacks try to pretend they are moderates"?

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On that note, in 2004 the Guardian's editor Ian Katz replied "it is no secret we are a centre-left newspaper". Of course this seems harmless until you check the "Translating Political Talk to Real World Talk" and find....

"Center-Left: A term used by far left extremists to pretend they aren't far left extremists."

Just fuck off.

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The Guardian was originally formed in the working-class city of Manchester, England. Manchester has the distinction of being the world's first Industrialized City. This means of course, that it was the world's first dirty, stinking, smoky cess-pit. Manchester's fortunes have recovered somewhat as they have given the world two of the biggest forces of Popular Culture: Manchester United Football Club and the band Oasis. The city itself remains a cesspit of theft and sexually transmitted diseases rivaled only by nearby Liverpool. The only upside is that The Guardian finally abandoned the pretense of being true to their roots and moved to London in 1964. Almost 35 years later to the day the Band Oasis quit pretending they cared about anything other than their own wallet and released "Be Here Now." 40 years to the day Manchester United sold out to Americans who quaintly refer to the club as "our fuckin' cash cow."

Just bizarre.

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(self proclaimed champion of the underclass)

If it's self-proclaimed you can provide a quote, can't you? Again, you, not knowing what you're talking about, branding it as something because of your own misguided notions.

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Because, you know, while Jews are technically a minority according to popular stereotypes they are so rich and powerful it's okay to discriminate against them (psst... did you hear the Jews are also keeping the Black Man down?).

Again, just nonsense.

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In October 2009, the Labour controlled Government banned The Guardian from Reporting about the actions of Parliament.

No, no, no, no, no.

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In 2006 The Guardian oddly claimed "fervent rightwing Americans started buying Bang & Olufsen stereos and Lego" to show support for the Danish who had offended Muslims with an offensive anti-Islamic cartoon.

I don't even know why this is here? What purpose does it serve? And it's hardly an odd claim when the Guardian provides statistics to show the increase and mentions a campaign organized to that effect. But seriously did you just search the Guardian website for any mention of right-wing Americans to throw in?

Topped off with a link to an odious little blog post- "Anyone who reads the Guardian is a twat". Not notable, not worth a thing, but it's there because it attacks the Guardian.

Now what has spawned your embarassingly misinformed hatred of the Guardian?

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US Elections: In 2004 the Guardian bought a voter list from Clark County, Ohio (in the USA) and encouraged readers to write to undecided voters to enlighten them to the fact the British hate George W. Bush and to encourage them to vote for the more acceptable, more British-like John Kerry. At first this seems to be in line with their reader's views. However, the Guardian's efforts is cited as one of the reasons G.W. Bush won Clark County as apparently Americans tend to think they should be allowed to decide which douchebag to vote for without some limey bastard telling them who to vote for.

Oh.

You don't know the subject matter, at all. You can't just go "Oh, the Guardian's liberal- here's a big list of strawmen arguments about liberals that will surely fit in the context of this paper I know nothing about!"
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Adamsan
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« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2009, 01:43 PM »

The only way to do a successful Guardian topic is to be satirical, ie. mocking it whilst pretending to support it and maybe throwing in some jokes about the stereotypes of its readers. I don't think polemical comedy (if that is what you are aiming for) would work so well, especially as most of Cracked's readership would be largely unfamiliar with the paper.

Also:

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US Elections: In 2004 the Guardian bought a voter list from Clark County, Ohio (in the USA) and encouraged readers to write to undecided voters to enlighten them to the fact the British hate George W. Bush and to encourage them to vote for the more acceptable, more British-like John Kerry. At first this seems to be in line with their reader's views. However, the Guardian's efforts is cited as one of the reasons G.W. Bush won Clark County as apparently Americans tend to think they should be allowed to decide which douchebag to vote for without some limey bastard telling them who to vote for.

I wrote a News Skim about that story years ago, it was fucking hilarious.
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Rory
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« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2009, 03:20 PM »

MikeSC, I think YOUR politics are getting in the way here.
And if someone making fun of The Guardian and their views pisses you off so much, maybe you should have wrote it first.


I'll tell you what MikeSC, I'll go back in and throw in the links to everything.  The links to the reporter who quit because of anti-semetic stuff, the links to the editors quotes I reference, the links to everything. Then you can have your arguement out with them.

I will take down the link to the blog which was thrown in for laughs though.

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MikeSC
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« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2009, 03:59 PM »

You asked for particular objections, I gave you a fuckload. If you intended to ignore them all along then why ask for them?
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Rory
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« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2009, 04:43 PM »

I also asked we do it in PM format but you didn't seem to follow that.  Anyway, I've taken a couple suggestions but some of your complaints are just "no no no no no" which isn't really something I can follow anyway.  I've updated it with links and a new section that address their political beliefs in greater detail instead of just assuming everyone can spot it for themselves.

I did take out the link to the blog that called readers a twat, and replaced it with a link to the online edition.
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Rory
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« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2009, 04:45 PM »

The Jew caused economic collapse does play on a well circulated idea that The Guardian is Anti-Semetic. I don't know that I can say that it is a true idea, but they certainly do seem to oppose virtually everything Israel does and have had reporters leave citing anti-semitism as causes.
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Rory
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« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2009, 04:48 PM »

I have decided youre right about how labour members don't use the term to describe themselves, it is often just lobbed at them from the other side.

But I'm having dificulty figuring out how to incorporate your suggestion to Fuck off
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MikeSC
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« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2009, 05:13 PM »

You don't seem to get it. You're making suppositions about the Guardian that are plain false. You obviously have no experience with the subject. I wouldn't try to make a topic page about a newspaper in America from bits and pieces I can find on the internet as a vehicle to try and put as much of my politics in as possible.

Even something as small as the line about the Vikings editorial shows that you have no clue as to what the Guardian is like.

Your attempts at comments about British politics ("even more liberal/left camp than Labour"- I mean seriously?) show you have no clue as to what British politics is like.

And this new snide little add-on-

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If you're having trouble deciding the political orientation of The Guardian, you must live in England and be used to pretty much all of society thinking that way. So to better help you determine their political leanings, consider the following endorsements:

You really don't have a clue what you're talking about, especially if you think that an endorsement of Barack Obama is a statement of leftwing politics outside of the US.

You say the Guardian has a reputation of being anti-semitic- but this is completely false. A journalist left because she left the reporting was anti-Israel, and that anti-Israel reporting is anti-semitic. This is not a respected or acknowledged view of the Guardian.

You cannot write a decent topic when you know nothing about the topic or any of the issues brought up in the topic. And when you then try to use the topic you know nothing about as a vehicle to attack a political target it just becomes a massive mangled clusterfuck.

I mean, there are elementary things about the Graun that come to mind immediately that you've missed out, things that define it in comparison to the other newspapers. Things that you can't get from Wikipedia, you have to actually know the topic.

I can't be arsed with this, in my opinion it is a complete write-off. If after multiple revisions you're content to let this-

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We here at Cracked have no problem with anyone's political views, provided they keep them to themselves. Or at the very least you come out and say something like "I am a die-hard Republican so I think Sarah Palin is actually pretty not retarded." However, we do have a slight problem when obviously biased political hacks try to pretend they are moderates "I am a moderate but it is obvious to my neutral self that anyone opposed to Obama's health care plan is a racist."

On that note, in 2004 the Guardian's editor Ian Katz replied "it is no secret we are a centre-left newspaper". Of course this seems harmless until you check the "Translating Political Talk to Real World Talk" and find....

"Center-Left: A term used by far left extremists to pretend they aren't far left extremists."

...stay, I don't think anything can be done.

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I have decided youre right about how labour members don't use the term to describe themselves, it is often just lobbed at them from the other side.

It's not up to you to decide that, for Christ's sake. You should know these things before you write about them, rather than making things up to fit with your agenda.
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Rory
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« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2009, 09:31 AM »

Sorry, I'm still trying to figure out how to use your very helpful "just fuck off" suggestion to better the article.

The angle I was playing for is that you have a leftist (or Liberal in American terms) paper that has taken some distinctly anti-leftist (anti-liberal) stances. Each of these stances are verififed within the article. Now the only way anyone could be offended by that and claim not to recognize this is because they refuse the basic premis that the Guardian has a left-bent. But to do that would be idiotic as the papers readers, its editorials, and a direct quote from one of the editors shows they are leftist. You'ver overreacting as if I'm calling them communist or even socialist.  Sorry if it offends you that someone could view your sacred paper deferently.

I read the Guardian online and read editorials that are lifted from the Guardian and put in out local left-leaning Newspaper too. So your claim that I'm unfamiliar with The Guardian is laughable to.
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Rory
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« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2009, 11:01 AM »

Upon further reflection on Mikes "Just Fuck Off" suggestion, I decided to go back and include a bit on the Guardian's reputation for misspelling words (including their own name) and getting their facts wrong.  Mining this angle for comedy allowed me to tone down the humor found in the gap between their readers beliefs and the sometimes puzzling stances that go against their usual stances.  This allowed me to tone down the political angle quite a bit. I'm going to go back and change the image I created of the first page but I'm not in a hurry as usually it is a pain in the ass to change that image (the uploader doesn't work well when trying to replace the first image for some reason).  But if it suites Mike I think I'm done with this now.
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MikeSC
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« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2009, 11:39 AM »

It is obvious you are unfamiliar with the paper, the British media, the political context. Stick to what you know, you don't know the British media. You don't have a feel for the topic. If you wrote one praising the Guardian or insulting the Telegraph with the same level of ignorance about British media and politics I would post much the same thing.

And seriously, if you think having a problem with "center-left means far-left extremist for those who don't want to be identified as far-left extremist" means that I have a left-wing bias, you're a stupid fuck.

Even if you actually knew the subject, I don't think you would be able to write about it in the same way as you would American media. Being a centre-left newspaper in the UK isn't the same as being a right-wing news network in the US, for example. Politicians of all parties have regular or semi-regular columns in papers across the political spectrum. The leader of the Tory party, for example, has written in the Guardian. Vince Cable regularly writes for the Daily Mail.

You can't just transfer your kind of entrenched "our normal moderate media" versus "their far-left extremist media!" attitude to British media. It doesn't fit.

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DevlindeSade
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« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2009, 11:40 AM »

Ignoring all political debate and whether or not the Guardian is left/centre/barmy/pretty decent, there are problems with this page as a viable topic for the front page.

1.  It is clear that you the author has an axe to grind here - not because the criticism is so heavy but because you have lost sight somewhat of what you're trying to achieve.  The detail, research (digging up old stories) is excellent but you've forgotten to make it funny.  Try counting the jokes from
Quote
But perhaps we're just misunderstanding
The topic has become a list of things wrong about the Guardian rather than something to make everyone laugh.

2.  Because of the over-load in content, there is a lack of apologetics, i.e. why this topic is on Cracked and why anyone should care.  Since this is an American website, you need to make it relevent to that audience.  That means adjusting the content to an American audience that is mostly unfamiliar with the Guardian.  Sure, some politicized American's might read it (and it's true, the Guardian does have a large readership in the US), but on the whole it's not that mainstream.  You need to find out what it is that Americans would find funny about the paper.  Why do they read it?  What kind of person reads it?  What is missing in the US that means people have to read news from Britain?  Those are the kinds of things that would interest an American reader.
So the excellence of it's sports section is not that important.  People read the Guardian for liberal views of both politics and art.  I don't think it's a selling point of the article to tell Cracked readers why people in Britain read the Guardian (soccer, jobs page, arts coverage, left-leaning, young "student" orientation).

3.  If you want to have a go at something like the Guardian, there are more subtle ways of going about it then simply listing their errors.  Poking humour at it is the most natural and effective way IMO as it forces people to realize they're laughing at something they'd regard as serious (in principle).  All this is going to do is irritate its readership and alienate those unfamiliar.

4.  If you want to do a mock-up of the front page, I'd suggest using a piece of software like Serif Draw Plus which is free to down load and very simple to use.  I'd get hold of the Guardian header and then mock it up myself.  Bear in mind that is has to be funny enough for it to stand alone and warrent $50 and the front page, so doing a mock up might work further down the article, but may not be sufficient for the main image.

Hope that helps, and remember everyone, be nice.  Not an editor.
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