On May 21, President Obama and Dick Cheney faced off on the issue of torture with back-to-back speeches. With the respect due to such an important topic, I’ve faithfully transcribed the speeches here in the form of a high-action comic adventure.
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November 19th, 2009 at 10:38 pm
The last panel hurt my brain for a second there.
And personally? I think suicide bombing is a coward’s way out. And the Koran explicitly forbids suicide. Remember folks: Al-Quaeda is a Muslim group, like how the KKK is a Christian group.
October 18th, 2009 at 8:40 pm
We could sum up this entire page, comments and all with this:
Mental torture =/= inhumane
Physical torture = inhumane
Terrorists =/= Evil people
terrorists = Devoted people.
And yes, I AM defending their actions.
September 20th, 2009 at 8:01 pm
Why did this seem like it these peronas fit so well….?
August 2nd, 2009 at 3:17 pm
*tries not to fall off her chair as she laughs*
I’m sending your page off to all my friends!
August 1st, 2009 at 7:04 pm
@ Jack:
Most suicide bombers, and those sympathetic with them know full well that Islam/Qur’an says it is evil to kill innocents during war, but support it anyway from a twisted sense of desparate bravery when faced with superior numbers and fire power. This attitude comes from old local tribalism mindsets, not religion.
August 1st, 2009 at 6:58 pm
“Electric dick clamp workers” lol
July 25th, 2009 at 7:46 am
@Batzarro - That’s not necessarily the case. Not all suicide bombers are poor people who are just taken in by terrorist organizations which give them food, etc. A lot of them believe in this stuff their entire lives, and many of them are from relatively wealthy backgrounds. Just read a paper occasionally, you’ll see that often when potential suicide bombers are arrested, they are very well educated, often middle class individuals, and just believe in, as you phrased it, a purpose. Often it’s religious reasons, which they’ve either converted to when they’ve become disillusioned with life and want to believe there’s something more, or they’ve had the views ingrained in them due to their early socialization. Not all terrorists are poor, and they don’t all just live on the streets - there are much deeper reasons for it. Also, on the Palestine reference, Palestinians are usually separatists (e.g. Hamas), and are fighting for their own state free from israel. The kind of terrorists who usually attack targets in America or Europe are the religious types, who are fighting just because they believe Allah wants them too. You can’t lump all terrorists in like that.
July 2nd, 2009 at 10:33 am
Okay, I’ve read too many stupid statements regarding how terrorists are born, and I think I should pitch in.
Imagine if you had nothing but some filthy rags. Sounds scary, right? Sleeping on the streets, living of scraps. Then some guys come along. They tell you you’re life sucks because of THEM and points to some guys in a military base. These guys give you two things: food and a “purpose”. The purpose is, of course to blow yourself based loosely on some scriptures and some leaders who claim to be in the know of the wills of God. Think about it: You have no life to lose!
Again, I am not trying to justify their actions. Just that suicide bombers are poor, illiterate people without any hope for a good life who are roped in by leaders into doing their dirty work. It’s more complicated than it might seem. I doubt most of these poor bastards actually know what America is, or plan to build a little cottage in Palestine.
July 2nd, 2009 at 9:09 am
Yog-Sothoth, I do love me a challenge.
It’s easy. International laws already covered that it’s eillegal to proceed in such a manner.
And besides, do you think a government that allows torture will stop at the foreigners? You want to know how that ends? With the country’s very people being tortured or “disappearing”, like in Chile during Pinochet’s reign. It’s a short step from “protecting the citizens” to “protecting my own power and interests”. Although if you really believe any of what happened during the Bush years was for your benefit, then you weren’t paying attention.
In essence, even if you can say, “go ahead, torture them guys” you are giving them the key to eventually torture YOU as well. Or do you think Hitler started his speeches by saying “I’m a murderous, power hungry bastard!” No, it always starts by saying this will be good for you. Then before you know it you’re own liberties and personal life are affected.
June 27th, 2009 at 10:08 pm
Frosting and cheese? C’mon - thats fcking hilarious!!! (not sarcasm).
Plus the random “warks” to rep penguin noises that Cheney makes were funny too as well as the way the writer made Cheney say nonsensical phrases as a way to parody the intelligent sounding nonsense that the real Cheney used to justify everything BushCo did.
June 27th, 2009 at 10:04 pm
Regardless of whether waterboarding is torture or not, the bottom line is that simply HOLDING many of the people in Gitmo, that we have held in the last several years, is a form of torture and is one of the most reprehensible acts that America has ever committed. The idiot Repubs claim to be for family, but then are willing to tear Muslim innocents from their own families on scanty or non existent evidence.
Further, as an EMT, you should know that most Americans will likely die from heart disease related complications rather than a terrorist attack, and that the US Govt in the last few years has made far too big a deal about terrorism than it actually is. India, the UK, and many other countries deal w/ terrorism in a far more calm manner than Americans do and they are better for it.
I’m not going to debate the minute points of BushCo policy on terrorism, but I think that they fail to understand it, or failed, I guess I should say, and their policy as a whole reflects that lack of understanding.
June 24th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
this has to be the most insane comic book attempt I’ve ever seen
June 18th, 2009 at 10:04 am
cheney is probably the most unabashedly evil person i’ve ever seen. he just doesn’t care
June 16th, 2009 at 7:28 pm
Wait, something about “Yog-Sothoth” seems familiar…
Lovecrafty, is that you?
June 13th, 2009 at 2:51 am
I always through Cheney looked like the Penguin.
June 11th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
@Yog-Sothoth
You’re asking people to justify something without applying terms like ‘morals’, ‘principles’ or ‘ethics’, so what the hell else are we going to justify actions with?
Justification n. A reason, explanation, or excuse which provides convincing, *morally* acceptable support for behavior or for a belief or occurrence.
June 9th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
“name one other thing that has been around for 5000 years that also doesn’t work”
Seriously? Astrology, borrowing money from the mob, occupation of foreign countries, alcohol diets, and the rhythm method, off the top of my head.
June 9th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
Obama as the dark knight
lol
June 7th, 2009 at 7:23 am
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June 6th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
@Yog-Sothoth
Actually, I used moral to introduce my point, not to argue it, but you know what? Screw it. I really, honestly don’t care what you think because I know I’m right and I know you’re an idiot, even if you won’t admit to it. Knowing it is good enough for me.
I’m going to stop reading comments and go eat some ice cream with my friends now. Goodbye.
June 6th, 2009 at 3:26 am
“Rez Says:
Yog-Sothoth was owned.”
Hardly. I asked why torture is never justified, not why it doesn’t work. ican’thascheezeburger tried to explain that, and failed, then tried to explain why it is not justified, using “moral” as one ov the first words in the argument, thus forfeiting. I could easily debate the first part, but if I wanted someone to explain to me why torture doesn’t work, I would say something like, “name one other thing that has been around for 5000 years that also doesn’t work”.
But I really don’t wanna end up like psycho and gene there, I just came here to defend myself, and I wouldn’t have said anything at all here in the first place if this comic was remotely funny.
June 6th, 2009 at 3:00 am
[...] The Torture Debate (As a Batman Comic) | Cracked.com Wow! (tags: politics) [...]
June 5th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
Funniest thing I’ve read all day. This makes politics fun!
June 5th, 2009 at 1:48 am
Seanbaby can you come and live in England please? We pride humour above almost all things, including dental hygiene.
Ill give you a quid towards your flight.
June 4th, 2009 at 6:48 pm
While Everyone has been trying to get their political rhetoric across, no one seems to notice that this comic isnt funny
June 4th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
Funny shit.Also,from the mountains of stuff I’ve read about Churchill, he never personally tortured anyone.Niether did Bush, or Cheney, or Clinton, or Hitler, or Mao,Stalin… .We all suffer through some kind and/or scale of torture on a daily basis.If waterboarding is so horrific and disgusting and smelly, people would be killing themselves enmass for having to go through life day to day.Having to look at goddamn Nancy Pelosi is fucking torcha!
June 4th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
Yo right, Yog-Sothoth, America don’t need no meaningless words like principle, ethics, morals nonsense! That shit hain’t in the bible. We need freedom like what Bush gaved us!
June 3rd, 2009 at 1:21 pm
and why drowning pool?
June 3rd, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Where can i buy one of those “Fuck the remains” t-shirts?
June 3rd, 2009 at 11:04 am
I think I’d be hesitant to F*** with any country run by Cheney/Penguin.
Additionally, the fact that America doesn’t perform Ass-gluings followed by forced chili-feeds really ought to end the whole “torture” debate.
June 2nd, 2009 at 1:18 pm
Gene, you dumb ass, you fail SERE school if you don’t break and nothing is voluntary in the military. It’s not to prepare for capture by the enemy, because nothing can prepare you for ‘real’ torture. Everyone breaks, even in SERE school.
One guy in my unit forgot the ’secret’ we were supposed to keep. The ‘instructors’ (who broke the law according to you liberal pussies), broke his pinky and his little toe, after all the other things they normally do didn’t work. They thought he was a bad ass, but he was just a moron like you.
Given the choice between being hog tied with duct tape and thrown into a freezer or being waterboarded, I’d take the waterboarding. If you think waterboarding is bad, try going from a tropical environment (triple canopy jungle) to a dark, freezing box. You lose track of time and eventually all control of you body. The first time they take you out, you can try to be tough guy, but the second time, you tell them whatever they want.
Just cause you take it from servicemen on a regular basis, doesn’t make you one.
June 2nd, 2009 at 8:24 am
P5YCHO,
You imbecile. SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape - not ‘SEAR’) training is to prepare troops for the kinds of torture they will face if captured by the enemy. It is VOLUNTARY. Some commands will require you to go through SERE training if you want such and such position, but it is never mandatory. Take it from a serviceman - your argument sucks, and furthermore, fuck you.
June 2nd, 2009 at 2:41 am
Yog-Sothoth was owned.
June 1st, 2009 at 7:25 pm
Seanbaby, isn’t it time you start roasting some of these crybaby dumbasses flaming you one this site?
Your angry christian letters section of your website was an eye-opening, hilarious thrill-ride through retarded, redneck illiteracy.
I think so.
June 1st, 2009 at 5:18 pm
Wow. This is a whole lot of internet drama for a silly cartoon about Obama dressed up as Batman.
June 1st, 2009 at 2:03 pm
This board is nothing but a bunch of weak kneed retards crying about the 3 terrorists that were waterboarded. Yet none of you will ask why it is that Obama and the Democrats continue to allow the military to waterboard our own troops during SEAR training. The answer is either they don’t really believe it is torture but want retards like you to support them or the really do believe it is torture but don’t give a damn about our own troops.
BTW, the lesson of SEAR school is that you will break, you will tell them everything and that you should. 24 hours after being captured, any information you have will be useless, as your command should change anything vital you know (which won’t be much anyways).
Morons!
June 1st, 2009 at 9:05 am
[...] that the last few frames are unintelligible to me), so this is a senseless post but check out Cracked.com’s Seanbaby and his comicbookization of the torture debate. Really quite excellent and [...]
June 1st, 2009 at 8:07 am
this cartoon was dongtacular XD
torture is wrong.
peace.
May 31st, 2009 at 11:39 pm
whenever i read stuff from seanbaby the laugh doesn’t just come out, but rather builds sentency by sentence, until i’m trying to hold back losing it at work, but each additional sentence makes it worse. love it.
May 31st, 2009 at 7:00 am
@Yog-Sothoth
…Ok. You’re on.
It has been proven through some extensive research that there is a considerable chance the people being tortured don’t know the information being tortured from them.
And even if they did know, they would never tell the united states government and betray their leaders. If a US soldier did that, a lot of people would call it treason. And what would they have to gain, anyway? It’s not like we just let them go if they tell us what we ask them to.
And even if they knew, and they were treasonous, AND they didn’t care about living outside of prison, if they let anything slip they would be interrogated more, because there’s proof they know something and if they know something they might know more than what they told us.
And even if they were…I don’t know, a suicidal, masochistic, treasonous person who thought they could gain something from telling what they knew (assuming all the time that they really did know it) how would they tell? Waterboarding is pouring water down your throat, it doesn’t leave a lot of space for, like, talking. And being half-conscious after some government agent shocks your penis off isn’t really the best time to form coherent words.
And THAT’s just the reason it wouldn’t work. You want me to tell you why it’s not MORAL? Sure.
We’re creating terrorists. Simple as that.
If Iraq and America were switched around, and America was being invaded, I might be a bit pissed, but nothing too bad. And if, say, my brother was killed in battle, I’d greive. I’d feel sad and I might become prejudice against Iraqiens, but nothing too serious. If he was captured in battle as a war prisoner, I’d be worried for him and pray for him.
But if my brother was tortured for information he very well might not even know, I wouldn’t be sad. I’d be furious. I’d want to fight back against whatever sick person was doing that. In the right conditions, I might become a terrorist.
And if I saw enemy troops coming? They’d better run like hell because I’d take no mercy and no chances of going to fucking Guantanamo.
These people think that THEY are on the right side. They’re the good guys, we’re the bad guys in their eyes. Is THIS how we’re going to convince them? By becoming torturing, justifying, power-crazy evildoers?
And apart from all that, there’s that the public won’t stand for this.
American morale (not “moral”, “morale”.) is already suffering with the economy in the toilet (hell, it’s not even in the toilet anymore, it’s reached the septic tank.) a Trillion dollar debt (growing bigger every day) two wars, a new president, school shootings, fear mongering, and every damn thing I haven’t mentioned (just pick up a newspaper. I read an article yesterday claiming the bush administration used out-of-context religious quotes to start the Iraq War.) we don’t need this crap on here too. On top of everything else, I don’t want to have to worry that our government is evil and untrustworthy. Or at least, more so than I already knew.
…HA!
May 31st, 2009 at 3:48 am
Hey, I got a challenge for everyone!
Try to explain why there is no situation imaginable where torture is justified, regardless ov how many lives it could save or how horrible and deserving the person receiving it is, and do this WITHOUT using any variation ov the words “principle”, “moral” or “ethic”, the three words people always resort to when they can’t think ov any logical way to explain why they are right.
Okayyy…GO!
May 31st, 2009 at 2:14 am
“Churchill never agreed to torture and he was fighting the Nazis.”
The Godwin’s Law Reversal, ladies and gents.
May 30th, 2009 at 11:35 pm
Would you like to date an open minded girl? Yes, I’m that girl. I like handsome guys. I have a Blog in the web—seekbi.com—Guys, join and find me out.
May 30th, 2009 at 11:32 pm
fine
May 30th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
Why does Chaney look so natural with that traditionally evil extra-long cigarette in his mouth?
May 30th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Why are you a columnist here?
Don’t worry.
I shall escort you out.
May 30th, 2009 at 5:36 am
According to Jane Mayer, when she interviewed a lot of the lawyers/military people at Guantanamo, someone did tell her that the staff were huge fans of ‘24′ and did base some of their actions on stuff they saw on that show.
May 30th, 2009 at 12:14 am
Churchill never agreed to torture and he was fighting the Nazis.
May 29th, 2009 at 11:29 pm
Oh seanbaby. how Ive missed your rants. Been a fan since you first appeared at EGM
May 29th, 2009 at 9:46 pm
I got a kick out of watching Pelosi and Biden make shit-eating faces in the background.
Oh, and “Fuck the remains”. That was dongtacular
May 29th, 2009 at 8:48 pm
I was going to congratulate Seanbaby on an okay article but there’s a link to a cougar site below this
May 29th, 2009 at 5:46 pm
^^^^^^^^^^^^ AgelessMate. COM ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
A 35+ year old female who is on the “hunt” for a much younger, energetic, willing-to-do-anything male. The cougar can frequently be seen in a padded bra, cleavage exposed, propped up against a swanky bar in San Francisco (or other cities)waiting, watching, calculating; gearing up to sink her claws into an innocent young and strapping buck who happens to cross her path. “Man is cougar’s number one prey”
May 29th, 2009 at 5:27 pm
that’s so sweet!!
all hot people on ++++ Agelessmate. c o m ++++ are talking about this; BTW, it’s the place where hot cougars and sexy young men;and handsome old folks with sensual chicks meet and mingle! You may wanna check it out!LOL
May 29th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
Damn. You made Cheney look to Evil and Obama too Gay. I mean just look at that first picture of Obama!
May 29th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
Dude, this was a great article, but please don’t do another political post for a while. They’re hilarious, but the comments section in articles like this… Well, you can see what I mean.
May 29th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
Too gay; didn’t read
May 29th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
@ Caedes I actually had my brother waterboard me with a hose the other day, and yes it was thoroughly fucking unpleasant, but it wasn’t physically harmful
May 29th, 2009 at 10:42 am
Daniel. No, I don’t really care about arguing on the internet. At least not about which version of Batman is in favor of torture.
Go eat a dick.
May 29th, 2009 at 10:33 am
Purple suits Cheney.
May 29th, 2009 at 10:15 am
You idiot Yinzer, he’s clearly Adam West batman.
Do you even care about arguing on the internet?!
May 29th, 2009 at 10:10 am
I still love Seanbaby though. In a manly sort of way.
May 29th, 2009 at 10:09 am
Kind of ironic actually. The guy who’s against torture is portrayed as Batman, the guy who interrogated the Joker in The Dark Knight by beating the shit out of him. The same Batman who questioned a mob boss by breaking both his legs in that movie. Who routinely threatens to drop criminals off of skyscrapers in the comics. Against enhanced interrogation. Right.
May 29th, 2009 at 9:38 am
weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
May 29th, 2009 at 9:19 am
I was anti-Seanbaby at first, but this post is a winner.
May 29th, 2009 at 9:11 am
Heh. Awesome! Well worth the wait.
May 29th, 2009 at 8:47 am
Haha! That was so random and beautiful!
May 29th, 2009 at 8:04 am
@ nobodyimportant
You are missing the whole point. Being a “moral guardian” is not about guarding society’s morality, but guarding society *from* morality. Don’t feel bad, it is a common misunderstanding.
May 29th, 2009 at 7:40 am
who says not?
then guess you better see what hot and sinceretall singles on http://Tallconnect.com are saying about her!! BTW, it’s the place where tall people meet and mingle! Nothing but love rules there!!
May 29th, 2009 at 7:13 am
“I dont cheat on my wife, unless given any possible oppurtunity”
Absolute gold. Seanbaby has swayed me
May 29th, 2009 at 5:46 am
“Until you drag Britain into another war again.”
Hehehe, you Brits and your crazy revisionist history…
May 29th, 2009 at 2:28 am
I must say, I AM rather tired of hearing Dick Penguin’s story. ^_^
May 29th, 2009 at 1:57 am
Torture may be wrong, but it still gives me erections.
May 29th, 2009 at 12:22 am
I laugh at the idiots here who are saying waterboarding isn’t torture.
“just water being splashed on your face”
That’s just stupid, it’s water being poured on your face to make you think you’re going to drown and die, which most people are really terrified of. Please, go and get your friends to waterboard you with a gallon of water and please, after you’ve finished crying and shaking, come back here and say “it’s just a bit of water on the face”.
“not physically damaging”
The people who say this are actually retarded, they throw the word around and they have no clue what it actually means;
“…any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession”
That’s EXACTLY what waterboarding is, mental suffering (thinking you’re going to drown) to obtain information.
Another thing:
If I was just a regular guy in Iraq or Afghanistan, and I saw how Americans are fine with torturing people who look like me, I’d probably grab a Kalashnikov and start shooting at your soldiers, just in case they were here to take me to Guantanamo bay.
But luckily I’m a regular guy in Britain and really couldn’t give a crap about the USA’s war on terror. Until you drag Britain into another war again.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:59 pm
comment below this is from Kevin something or other, sorry for spamming.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:58 pm
Also, for anyone not willing to read through the comments I hope they catch this one:
“I understand it’s supposed to be comical, but to compare waterboarding to holding a “few babies over a smashing piston” is a bit ridiculous and sort of ruins the whole thing for me.”
Hahahahahahahahaha, if that was on purpose that is the greatest thing ever but I’m under the impression that you were just pulling a Tommy Wiseau.
‘Eh, I like torture jokes, but babies? C’mon, they’re not cute babies right? I don’t want cute babies to be tortured, my funny boner goes flacid when that shit happens.’
May 28th, 2009 at 11:52 pm
Do I even have to say it was great? Like, wouldn’t I just be wasting space observing a fact everyone else witnessed already?
Thanks Seanbaby, you’re the reason I started visiting Cracked.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:32 pm
Exaggerations are a comic staple, Kev. They’ve been a comic staple since Jonathan Swift suggested that eating babies would be in line with the British policies for Ireland. We’ve also executed Japanese officials for ordering American soldiers to be water boarded because they thought they could get information that would protect their country. Second degree murder doesn’t even get you an execution. Also, saying that “we may torture, but we don’t kill, so we have the moral high ground” is like saying “sure I killed her, but at least I didn’t have sex with and eat her flesh as she died”.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:20 pm
“If you fucking beat this prick long enough, he’ll tell you he started the goddamn Chicago fire, now that don’t necessarily make it fucking so!”
- Eddie Cabot, Reservoir Dogs
May 28th, 2009 at 10:12 pm
I’m going to stay out of the political bitching and just say this was great. Sure, I’ll never be able to look at Cheney without thinking “Fuck the remains!” but sometimes sacrifices have to be made.
Also, Brandon is an idiot. That’s not even an insult.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:07 pm
You are right Brandon, Seanbaby should release a book with all of his stuff in it, and call it Seanbabys book of Facefucking Awesomness. That would be more of a cult classic than the Bible. In fact Seanbaby should have a religion called Facefuckianity. There could be passages about the super hero who punches pregnant women in the stomach so their unborn evil child will never be born.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:54 pm
Very funny, keep up the good work seanbaby.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:49 pm
I’m pretty much for torturing (I wouldn’t do it myself, but I think it’s an effective method and such) and I think that this article was alittle one-sided, but I’ll be damned if I didn’t lol. Which I did, very hard.
Dick Cheney just makes a great Penguin. Masterful work, Seanbaby. I salute you still.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:42 pm
This is the like 10th article by this guy. I keep giving him a chance but every article is soooooo fucking wordy. Jesus man, the other writers keep it simple. Look at Swaim, short, sweet and to the point.
If I wanted to read this much I woulda just fucking bought a book.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:42 pm
Where is Jay Pinkerton when you need him?
seriously.
May 28th, 2009 at 8:58 pm
We water boarded three people. It’s not like we did it to every prisoner we detained. Oh, we also did it to THREE very high profile terrorists who we knew had information regarding planned attacks. Hey it stopped an attack on L.A. and who knows where else. We may not know for a while since Obama refuses to release the memos that could tell us what information we were able to get out of them.
May 28th, 2009 at 8:15 pm
This is beyond awesome and inventive.
May 28th, 2009 at 7:16 pm
@ Anonymouse
do you really have nothing better to do? I go to show this article to my husband, and here you are, still screaming your sorry ass off! maybe you should forego the burgeoning political career and get a day job.
May 28th, 2009 at 7:15 pm
Nobody important said
“@Toast
I suppose Obama was just supposed to set all the prisoners free, then? I mean, that would be better than keeping them in tiny cells while awaiting trial, right?
Also forgetting that he order that Gitmo be closed down so hopefully they’ll end up in less crappy cells eventually.”
I dont think anybody no matter how liberal they are would be up for letting the all the detainees run free. I just hate how Obama says that we are going to take the moral high ground and not eliminate the due process that makes this country great…. while at the same time keeping people in a prison who may be inoccent.
We need trials to see who actually deserves what is be done to them. (maybe we could get a few executions in their too for those who deserve it)
May 28th, 2009 at 7:14 pm
I’d just like to mention that your country does not exist in a historical vacuum. Shit did not start happening just when you started paying attention to it. America has a pretty long and detailed history of screwing around in the middle east. Mujahadeen, anyone? And saying that torturing people doesn’t cause others to start fighting is just stupid. The 9/11 attacks weren’t toture, that was plain old horrible death and you got het up enough about that. People will defend their country, defend their people or defend their friends.
Other people disagree with you. They also kill, as do you. That does not deprive them of fundamental human rights, nor does it destroy your moral and legal obligation to observe them. They’re fundamental. It’s rather the point.
And all I’m going to say is, I’m a 17 year old Australian student, learning about Vietnam. I’m not saying that America assisted the establishment of the Khmer Rouge, but invading a neutral country is just kind of not cool. Conseuqence actually do happen, after you stop giving a shit.
May 28th, 2009 at 7:14 pm
Okay, the last two panels; pure gold.
Rock on, Seanbaby!
P.
May 28th, 2009 at 7:09 pm
@Kevin
You, sir, are an idiot. You’re missing the whole point and you have no idea what you’re typing about. Keep your head in the sand.
kthx
May 28th, 2009 at 6:55 pm
LOL at you people who are SO desperate to think Seanbaby is an idiot. Dont you understand that everything he writes is intentional?! He meant to say RETARDED and not RETARD…because it’s funnier that way, you morons!
Stop trying to pinpoint any little non-reason to hate him…. He’s smarter than you, get over it. That’s why HE’s writing, and YOU’re reading!
It’s comedy folks, fucking relax.
May 28th, 2009 at 6:37 pm
Meh… A bit over the top. What the media refers to as torture is nothing how it’s portrayed in this cartoon. I understand it’s supposed to be comical, but to compare waterboarding to holding a “few babies over a smashing piston” is a bit ridiculous and sort of ruins the whole thing for me. Whether you’re for torture or not, I think most people will agree that waterboarding isn’t on level with, say, beheading a few American journalists. Either way, America holds the moral high ground.
May 28th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
Holy shit. This might be the most succinct, brilliant analysis of the current political scene I’ve ever seen and also a goddamn hilarious comic.
Normally I’m not some internet sycophant, but good job, Seanbaby.
Good job, sir.
May 28th, 2009 at 6:18 pm
“Mr. Mencia is a congenital retarded.”
He also does not proofread his posts.
May 28th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Do we waterboard American criminals? Why not if it is effective and not torture?
Mostly, I am just concerned about losing due process because then the government can arrest anyone they want and say “Look I found a terrorist. I am so awesome! Without your great leaders you would all be dead!”
May 28th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
I love how un-politically-neutral this website is. I agree with the anti-torture argument 100% and I’m glad Cracked can make a point and still be hilarious. Go Seanbaby!
May 28th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
seanbaby rocks. though i never get to the end of his articles… i hear there are some punchlines, even.
May 28th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
@Artic, then GTFO! nobody forces you to read cracked
May 28th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
Obama’s the worst thing that could have happened to this country. Gitmo was necessary. Terrorists should get worse than waterboarding, but we’re nice enough not to cut off their dicks and force feed them to their mothers. Which we should do, don’t get me wrong.
May 28th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
I LOVE how the Penguin stops to formally introduce Drowning Pool, HAHA.
This one definitely belongs in the Seanbaby Hall of Fame!
May 28th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
I <3 generalizing pricks like Pedgerow.
May 28th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
@Toast
I suppose Obama was just supposed to set all the prisoners free, then? I mean, that would be better than keeping them in tiny cells while awaiting trial, right?
Also forgetting that he order that Gitmo be closed down so hopefully they’ll end up in less crappy cells eventually.
May 28th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
What I like best, other than the deep belly chuckles, is that this is a smarter and subtler treatment of the issue than many major news outlets ever manage.
May 28th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
Was this the same speech to which obama said that he was going to hold the detainees without a trial for an indeffinate amount of time?
Thats totally something Batman would be down for…..
Capturing people and holding them in shitty cells for indeffinate periods of time without knowing that they did anything wrong in the first place.
May 28th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
I personally find it funny that it tends to be conservatives that favor the torturing of enemy combatants. The same conservatives that go to church every sunday and try to be the guardians of morals by halting gay marriage, abortion, and drug use.
Without making a critique of Christianity, I would say that you would be REALLY hard pressed to find the passage in the bible were jesus says “attach the black to the left ball and the red to the right, and the truth shall set you FREE!” I’ve checked, its not in there. So either back down on torture or back down on your other ‘moral’ crusades, because you can’t have it both ways, guys.
just saying.
May 28th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
@iwishthiswasn’t
THIS THIS THIS
May 28th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
The problem as it stands it that you really can’t justify torture use AT ALL with any real logical or moral means.
1) Torture is good for getting information out of people. By that I mean that a guy will ANYTHING you want to stop you from applying 60,000 volts to his testicles. Torture is NOT a truth serum. There is NO way to validate the information obtained from torture. Even in a highly unlikely ‘ticking timebomb’ scenario, there is nothing to stop the guy from giving you the wrong deactivation number. This is ESPECIALLY true if the guy is innocent and didn’t know them to begin with.
2) Too often the people BEING tortured are being tortured without any sort of due process. We don’t know if they’re terrorists or not. Torturing an innocent person is morally inexcusable. If you cannot guarantee that innocents aren’t being tortured, then you cannot engage in the practice
3) It removes the moral high ground. You can’t claim to be the ‘good guys’ while condoning inhumane practices. You just CAN’T. If an insurgent is shooting at you, by all means shoot back, but you cannot justify putting him in mortal pain for the cause of ‘freedom’ or ‘democracy.’ Torturing our prisoners essentially validates the enemy torturing THEIR prisoners, and we can no longer say they cannot. Thats the big problem, everyone speaks of “saving american lives” but never stops to wonder how many americans are killed directly or indirectly because of inhumane treatment of prisoners.
Thats just the last word. It HAS to stop. We don’t have to coddle the enemy and we don’t have to sacrifice our own morals in order to obtain victory. We can find a better way.
May 28th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
“nuclear times spiders”
Every Seanbaby column has at least one phrase that is pure, top-grade comedy GOLD.
May 28th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
No, that’s “guilt by association” lrn2EN101, and that was a joke.
Also, I’m 19. In college. You know, where you didn’t go? School’s out for summer! Yay!
And no, I’m not an art major. I’m an evil-Satan-worshiping-devil-magic major, otherwise known as biological science.
May 28th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
@matthew
What’s this? Housing market and Fannie Mae rising slowly but surely? Well, whaddaya know! It looks like his policies are *gasp* working!
May 28th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Ok fine, not 13, maybe 15.
You want a logical fallacy, look at your own posts.
“It’s because they’re neocons. They never listen. They just want to “kill them ragheads”. ” Ad hominem fallacy
May 28th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
Obama didn’t make Cheney look bad. Cheney did that himself.
Rah rah rah rah pigeon blood rah rah rah.
@Artic
Fact: Like women, conservatives can’t be funny. Case in point: the Half Hour News Hour.
May 28th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
@matthew
I don’t think a 13 year old would even know what 4chan or logical fallacies are. I actually haven’t been on 4chan since it crashed a couple weeks ago.
So Rorschach is a superhero, when even in the comic he’s called a vigilante, while Batman, one of the quintessential superheroes, is just an outlaw. Is it just because Rorschach is a neocon that he gets this special treatment from you, the obvious expert on all things comic related? He’s still classified as a superhero despite his not having powers.
May 28th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Anon. You can be proud of Obama all you want when we are drowning in even more debt than what Bush put us in. But hey, at least he made sure Dick Cheney looks bad.
May 28th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Im starting to hate Cracked and its liberal views.
May 28th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
@John
That was before the forming of the UN and the Geneva Convention.
@Pedgerow
Yeah I know, I’ve always hated it too (I’m American). Once Obama was elected, I thought that I could finally be proud that my country has become so progressive. I just want my people to back up what they say.
@astor
No, I mean, like something that I’ve heard of and not just some circle-jerking blog written by a couple of old midwestern coots who use god as a justification for everything. I mean credible like Yahoo news, Google news, BBC, Reuters, etc.
May 28th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
Anonymouse:
A 13 year old kid who spends too much time on 4chan and watching the Daily Show
May 28th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
Batman was not a super hero. He was an outlaw vigilante.
May 28th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
I love when I look up what the memos are I get shit calling me “Anti-American” and how I “want the troops to die”. Of course I care about the troops overseas. It’s because I care that I want them to come home where they’re safe.
So they said there’s going to be an attack “using East Asian operatives”. So… how do you prevent that? Do we go back to the concentration camps of WWII and round up every Asian in California? Is there anything else to confirm it? No? Great! That helps so much!
Okay, so what else did we learn? Al Qaeda is organized! How helpful! What do they want to do? Destroy America! As if we didn’t know that already!
They’re going to detonate a dirty bomb in DC? Where? In the middle of the street? Great! How do we prevent that? Search every single person with a backpack within a 10 mile radius? Can we even confirm any of these reports? No? Doesn’t matter! Yay!
Or how about we do the simple thing and just LOOK AT PEOPLE’S BAGS AT THE AIRPORT.
I love how the neocons are calling this a “witch hunt” when the Patriot Act says that anyone who’s Middle Eastern can be arrested if someone accuses you. And unwarranted wire tapping. So when McCarthy does it, it’s “Homeland Security”, but when it’s “libruls” it’s a witch hunt! How charming.
May 28th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
David Wong would be proud of this. Apart from the jokes that failed; David Wong never fails. I love David Wong. But this has many things to recommend it as well.
But what’s all this about torture being beneath you because you are American? I know you people wave flags and say your country’s name whenever possible (helpful constructive hint: that’s a massive contributory factor to anti-Americanism), but where is the correlation? Is torture not beneath Canadians or Mexicans? If Sweden denounced torture, would you be surprised?
May 28th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
“Townhall.com? Doesn’t sound very credible. How about ABC, CNN, Washington Post, NYT, or LA Times. You know, something that I’ve heard of?”
So, I guess any news site that will not agree to your ideals automatically will become a “not so credible” source. Good!
“Riiiight. It sounds like all the guy said was when asked about other terrorist attacks, after waterboarding, he just said “Yes”. Not very good info.”
Did u even read the complete article ? Looks like ur mind is trying hard to block whatever is written there. It clearly mentioned how waterboarding Khaled lead to info that led to capture of Hambali, who is the master mind in Bali bombings & who is planning to carry more bombings! I wonder how u missed that!
May 28th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
meh.
i did love the part where cheney introduces drowning pool though
heh.
May 28th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
this certainly isnt the first time we’ve used torture. In the early twentieth century we used it againts Phillipino rebels who wanted “independence from american imperialism” and some such bullshit. I’m more concerned with how they can still snacht you up legally for no reason at all.
May 28th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
Like I said, when you’re being tortured like that, you’ll say anything to make it stop.
“Is there another terrorist attack being planned?”
(after waterboarding)
“Yes! Yes! Just make it stop! I’ll say anything!”
He was also talking about a terrorist attack IN THAILAND. How is that of any use to HOMELAND security?
May 28th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Townhall.com? Doesn’t sound very credible. How about ABC, CNN, Washington Post, NYT, or LA Times. You know, something that I’ve heard of?
“Confirmed for me”. Riiiight. It sounds like all the guy said was when asked about other terrorist attacks, after waterboarding, he just said “Yes”. Not very good info.
I remember hearing about the LAX thing, and I heard that he willingly talked. Nothing about “enhanced interrogation” or any doublespeak like that. Same as the guy who talked about 9/11. You know, the guy who the CIA didn’t believe?
May 28th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
@Anonymouse
Yes, the Bali bombings were carried out in 2002. And I am talking abt the night club bombings that killed 202 innocent ppl. But the mastermind Riduan was captured only in 2003, after Khalid was waterboarded in 2003 & gave info abt him.
You might want to read this:
http://townhall.com/columnists/TerryJeffrey/2009/04/22/cia_waterboarding_produced_intel_that_stopped_attack_on_los_angeles
May 28th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
Next time a cop gives you a speeding ticket, waterboard him until he agrees to tear the ticket and associated paperwork up. Since waterboarding is only a persuasive technique and not torture, you wont get arrested or anything. Win!
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.
May 28th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
@Tearon
It’s because they’re neocons. They never listen. They just want to “kill them ragheads”. Torture doesn’t make us any better than them. Why is it a horrible human rights scandal when the Khmer Rouge does it, but is perfectly acceptable when America does it?
May 28th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
“The attack involved the detonation of three bombs: a backpack-mounted device carried by a suicide bomber; a large car bomb, both of which were detonated in or near popular nightclubs in Kuta; and a third much smaller device detonated outside the United States consulate in Denpasar, causing only minor damage.” This was on October 12, 2002. Waterboarding wasn’t approved until 2003.
The guy who headed the attack also did it because Bali has a shitty legal system. He had been captured in 2000 for bombing churches and was a lead suspect, but he had a really short jailtime, so he was able to bomb again. If Bali had a better legal system, none of this would have happened in the first place. In fact, some say the police helped out with the bombings, so it was an inside job.
Everything I’ve researched about the bombings doesn’t say anything about getting information from interrogation, that they found him from plain old police work.
May 28th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
I don’t see how this is even an argument anymore. Everyone who has undergone waterboarding has come back saying it constitutes torture. People who voluntarily went through with it, knowing full well that they wouldn’t be harmed and that they could stop it any time they wanted to. There are no two ways about it: waterboarding is torture.
That being said, the outrage isn’t about them. We know that these are horrible, horrible people. Nobody is arguing that they should be put up in the four seasons. It isn’t about their treatment, it’s about OUR behavior. It’s about our sense of national morality, and it’s about our expectations for the treatment of our own people abroad. And that’s to say nothing of the fact that torture is an ineffective means of information gathering. In the real world, anyways. It works just fine in the movies.
May 28th, 2009 at 2:24 pm
@rockstone
I don’t know how you can be on here and still laugh without being leftist or centrist. Come join the moderates on the dark side, mwahahaha.
May 28th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
“What worried me when I heard about the Bali bombings was how there could be such lax security in front of a US Consulate. Don’t they usually have armed guards that do checks around embassies and shit like that?
They were members of a cult. So why doesn’t their country investigate shit about cults? Also, why do WE care about that? This is something that happened on the other side of the world. Sure, it happened to an embassy, but this didn’t happen in America. This is the fault of Bali, and could have been prevented. How do you know that he was specifically waterboarded? Wasn’t waterboarding not approved until like 2003 or 2004, after the bombing?”
Damn! You need to learn a lot. Bali bombings were carried out in nightclubs in 2002 & not at embassies as these ppl thought western culture is filthy & unislamic.
And waterboarding was used on these 3 prisoners in 2003 & it was approved in 2003 itself!
May 28th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
Do you even have proof that they waterboarded him to get that info? I already told you, waterboarding wasn’t approved until AFTER the attacks. The guy was captured way before waterboarding was approved by the DoJ. They probably interrogated him like any normal prisoner. You know, good cop bad cop, etc.
May 28th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
Fuck the remains!
Fuck the remains!
Fuck the remains!
Fuck the remains!
That was dongtacular.
May 28th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
And, even if waterboarding is okay- it still is torture.
And, I’m republican, and conservative…
May 28th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
They’re connected by six degrees of Kevin Bacon. I’m Jewish, which means I have distant relatives from the Middle East, which is where Al Qaeda is based. So that must mean I’m connected with Al Qaeda!
It’s like saying Obama’s a terrorist because he lives near some guy who used to be one of the Weathermen. That just means that terrorist activities are all distantly connected. Al Qaeda supported the Bali bombings, that doesn’t mean they’re involved.
And CX, I read that link you posted and most of those people weren’t planning any terrorist attacks but had connections, were misrepresented, or falsely accused.
May 28th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
“He was captured because he committed an act of terrorism. He can’t exactly blow up buildings from jail. It doesn’t work like in movies.”
True! He was captured bcoz he committed an act of terrorism & ALSO bcoz of info provided by KHALID during a waterboarding session. Otherwise, he would have killed more innocent people.
May 28th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
Torture is a tough thing. Non-citizens of the USA do not technically have all of the freedoms that we have, but even if Torture is completely acceptable- it still doesn’t give good information, and therefore- useless.
May 28th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
What worried me when I heard about the Bali bombings was how there could be such lax security in front of a US Consulate. Don’t they usually have armed guards that do checks around embassies and shit like that?
They were members of a cult. So why doesn’t their country investigate shit about cults? Also, why do WE care about that? This is something that happened on the other side of the world. Sure, it happened to an embassy, but this didn’t happen in America. This is the fault of Bali, and could have been prevented. How do you know that he was specifically waterboarded? Wasn’t waterboarding not approved until like 2003 or 2004, after the bombing?
May 28th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
He was captured because he committed an act of terrorism. He can’t exactly blow up buildings from jail. It doesn’t work like in movies.
May 28th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
“This is getting tiresome. I’m out.”
True!How is the group not connected to Al-Qaeda, when they were responsible for financing the terrorist attack that killed 100s of ppl.? Some ppl are just not getting it! Even I should get out of here.
May 28th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
@CavX
“One key point about waterboarding that everyone seems to be missing is you don’t tell the subject that no harm is going to come to them and tell them they are not going to die.”
Oh yes, you do. You tell them “we can do this ten times a day for years, if we want to. You’ll be fine.”
Really? Is that what they told you to say the last time you waterboarded someone?
Don’t know or care where you heard that from, but you are wrong.
May 28th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
@CX
That’s called first hand experience. If a neocon says that it felt like torture, that’s saying something. It’s like Gabriel said: was the genocide justified just because no one specifically said that Albanians were people? No. Semantics aside, the UN Charter you showed defined pretty solidly waterboarding as torture. They called it waterboarding, they did basically the same thing as the Khmer Rouge and the Spanish Inquisition. The only difference is now they also use plastic wrap. Does the fact that they use plastic wrap suddenly mean it’s not torture because they didn’t do it exactly the same way as in Cambodia? No. It works the same way and is going for the same effect: dry drowning. Dry drowning is just as dangerous and deadly as “wet” drowning. So you can’t say that just because they’re not drowning in the conventional sense doesn’t mean they’re not drowning.
May 28th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
“The Bali bombings also weren’t connected to Al Qaeda. Part of the money for the explosives had come from Al Qaeda. That’s not a firm enough connection to justify anything. If the CIA had obtained information about it, then why couldn’t they prevent the attack? Again, people will admit to anything under that kind of duress.”
Ur not getting it!! Riduan was planning more attacks against several Thai hotels and the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation summit (APEC) in Bangkok on October 2003, just like he did in Bali. And he was captured before that only because of the information provided by Khalid during one of the water boarding sessions. So, it did save some innocent lives!
May 28th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
“They called it waterboarding and waterboarding is defined as torture, no matter how it’s done. ”
No, it’s not. Now that you’re just starting to repeat your earlier lies I’ll simply tell you to read the whole thread again.
“In fact, one guy on Fox did it the exact way they did it at Gitmo and he said he was choking.”
I didn’t see “some guy felt like he was choking” in the legal definition of torture.
“Putting cellophane over your mouth and nose is cutting off your airway, constituting torture. ”
I didn’t see “can’t breathe for thirty seconds” in the legal defintion of torture, either. When are you going to go to the “fluffy pillow clause?”
“The person believes they are being killed, which constitutes as a mock execution”
Another lie. They are told they will not be killed.
“The Bali bombings also weren’t connected to Al Qaeda.”
Islamic militant group al Qaeda has claimed responsibility for the bomb attack on a Bali nightclub in which more than 180 people died.
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/11/07/bali.bombings.qaeda/
This is getting tiresome. I’m out.
May 28th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
A dongtacularly good summary. I can’t believe people are still arguing over whether or not this is torture. It’s been long established that it is, and we’ve prosecuted people for it, and we should continue to do so, even if they are our own citizens.
The end.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
They called it waterboarding and waterboarding is defined as torture, no matter how it’s done. In fact, one guy on Fox did it the exact way they did it at Gitmo and he said he was choking. Putting cellophane over your mouth and nose is cutting off your airway, constituting torture. The person believes they are being killed, which constitutes as a mock execution, and is illegal under international law no matter how they do it or who does it.
The Bali bombings also weren’t connected to Al Qaeda. Part of the money for the explosives had come from Al Qaeda. That’s not a firm enough connection to justify anything. If the CIA had obtained information about it, then why couldn’t they prevent the attack? Again, people will admit to anything under that kind of duress.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
“One key point about waterboarding that everyone seems to be missing is you don’t tell the subject that no harm is going to come to them and tell them they are not going to die.”
Oh yes, you do. You tell them “we can do this ten times a day for years, if we want to. You’ll be fine.”
May 28th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
Very funny article. I liked the pictures, and WARK was awesome.
The comments are freakin torture! Stop already!
May 28th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
‘Even the guy on Fox who did it said that he felt like he was dying.”
So what? The legal definition of torture is not “some guy on FOX said he thought he was dying.”
May 28th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
People are failing to understand that waterboarding was used only as a last resort to crack “tough” nuts after all the other methods have failed. That is the reason why just 3 people were known to be waterboarded.
And we saved some innocent lives, because we were able to capture terrorists like Riduan Isamuddin, who planned to bomb more hotels in Thailand, just like he did in Bali.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
“The only “terrorist” plots since 9/11 were some guy who saw too many movies and thought that he could set fire to an airport by dropping a match into a fuel line 30 miles away, and some idiots who thought they could take over a military base posing as pizza men.”
Oh, there’ve been a few others.
http://www.heritage.org/research/HomelandDefense/bg2085.cfm
May 28th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
One key point about waterboarding that everyone seems to be missing is you don’t tell the subject that no harm is going to come to them and tell them they are not going to die.
You tell them that if they do not tell you what you want to know great physical harm up to death is going to come to them if the do not tell you what you want know.
Sometimes they tell you what you want but most of the time the subject tells you what ever you want to hear.
Another form of torture that is very akin to waterboarding are mock executions. That is when you put someone in front of a firing squad give the order to fire and use blanks or unloaded guns.
When you are done you tell the person that next time it may or may not be for real and haul them back to their cell.
A few days later you bring them back out and do it again, maybe really shooting them or maybe not.
Again this is like waterboarding as in you don’t tell the person they are not going to drown. WHETHER YOU TELL THEM OR NOT, THEIR BRAIN IS TELLING THEM THEY ARE GOING TO DROWN.
Now what I would really like to is everyone who has seen the US perform waterboarding on a terrorist subject or has seen a mock execution done in a foreign country, Bosnia in my case, please raise their hand( glendoor42 slowly raises his hand ) and everyone else who hasn’t please go back to your entirely baseless and pointless argument that basically boils down to liberals and or conservative suck and I’m right and you are wrong so NYAH NYAH NAH NAH.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
@Gabriel
This. The only ones who say it’s not torture are neocons. Even the guy on Fox who did it said that he felt like he was dying.
I mean, they’re horrible people who deserve to die, yes, but torture is not going to get information. We’re supposed to be better than that.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
“Oh and also CX, the military which you so unquestioningly support even admits that waterboarding is torture. I still find it interesting that when the Khmer Rouge does it, it’s called torture. But when Americans do it, it’s “enhanced interrogation”. ”
I have already tried to teach you that it’s done differently at Gitmo… and NOT by the US military, by the way. It’s torture when water is actually forced into the subject’s nose and throat and the subject is in danger of dying, the way the Khmer Rouge and everyone else does it. Which is why, as I’ve patiently told you over and over, the waterboarding performed at Gitmo was done so as not to constitute torture. Water does not enter the nose or throat. There is no danger of dying. I can repeat the truth as often as you’d like.
“the stupid, fat, creationist, fundie midwesterners and the Buy-Bull Belt”
Ahh, the Liberal hatred of Judeo-Christian religions and “fly-over country” inhabitants rears its ugly head. You’re a living cliche.
“If we supposedly got info that prevented attacks, then how come you’ve been saying this whole time that we don’t know whether they worked or not?”
Where did I say that? You may have confused me with someone else.
“You know what we did? Ignored him.”
Define “we.” Who did he talk to? I’ve been saying for years that the CIA dropped the ball.
“If Bush kept us so safe, why did 9/11 happen under his presidency?”
You do know 9/11 was planned for several years starting in 1996, right? Nothing whatsoever to do with Bush. It would have happened under Gore or anyone else. Are you now saying Bush was waterboarding terrorists for plot info BEFORE 9/11? Stop now. You’re just making yourself look foolish.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:44 pm
“Also, is the information we got from them truly reliable? They were being tortured. How do we know that they were telling the truth and not just lying so that it would stop?”
Ever heard of Riduan Isamuddin? He is the operative of an Al Qaeda linked group that was responsible for Bali night club bombings tht killed 100s of people. He was about to strike at more hotels & restaurants before he was nabbed jointly by CIA & Thai forces. How did they get him? They could get him only because of the info revealed by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed during one of the waterboarding sessions. Interestingly, Khalid is only one of the 3 ppl to have been water boarded!
May 28th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
You’re assuming you have to be insane to have a psychological profile. People willing to blow themselves up in the middle of crowded streets, thereby killing their own people, are not completely balanced.
The way they found George Metesky was because the criminal profiler there was the House of criminologists. He studied him and knew exactly how to find him. No “interrogations”, no threats; just good ol’ fashioned detective work and psychology.
Thanks to profiling like this, we know a pattern for who’s most likely to volunteer for suicide bombing, and that lots of them are coming from a small town in Libya. That’s saving lives: going to the source.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
Wow. The article was good, then you scroll down to the comments, and it’s just a bunch of retarded 24 fans saying that “Hey, guys, it’s cool, ’cause waterboarding isn’t torture. No, no, it’s a horrific experience, and I wouldn’t want to undergo it, but it’s not torture. Because I have chosen to describe simulating drowning as something (to the victim) other than the threat of eminent death - because of course, when someone has been giving you the simulated sensation of drowning for 8 solid hours, clearly you’re not thinking, ‘I’m about to die, get me the fuck out of here, I’m going to die!’ you’re still completely rational and lucid, thinking, ‘clearly I’m in no danger, or I would’ve drowned already, I’m fine - this isn’t torture!’.”
Ladies and gentlemen, bullshit. Not that torture works more quickly than traditional interrogation techniques (it doesn’t) not that it produces more accurate intelligence (quite the contrary) but the entire PREMISE of it working is that it is, in fact, torture. If waterboarding did not meet the Geneva Convention standards for torture, no one would freaking do it as a means of obtaining information. “What? It’s sort of like having your hair washed, a light dip with nice cool water that causes no stress or panic whatsoever? Well sign me right up! I’ll just keep the codes to disarm the imaginary bombs to myself, then!”
But instead, we get Cheney enlisting his family (that’s weird, I thought they weren’t supposed to be media figures - oh, wait! No, that’s just when he was trying to make everyone scared of gay people even though his daughter’s a lesbian, I get it now!) to pardon torture or redefine it. The whole, “It’s not torture” argument is such bullshit that it doesn’t even bear addressing. It’s seriously on a level of stupid right along with “the climate isn’t changing” and Intelligent Design. The fact that there are literally thousands of professionals on one side declaring, “This is torture” and then a handful of Republicans on the other going, “Uh-uh. Nope. Totally not. Nope, see, I chose to define this word right here as meaning something different, so it’s not torture and you can’t stop me, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.”
When you have a situation like that, and someone says, “Huh, I’m going to take my cues from the tiny group of people with a vested interest in pretending that it’s not illegal because it keeps them out of jail.” you have to realize, that person may well be retarded. It’d be like if Milosevic said that he couldn’t be guilty of genocide because ethnic Albanians aren’t people. Of course it’s bullshit, of course it’s an excuse, and a retarded one at that, but according to the ‘it’s not torture’ rationale, you have to accept it. “Well, he just read the law differently, but you can’t prove that he would’ve broken it had he understood it the way that it was written. Clearly it should’ve said that ethnic Albanians were SPECIFICALLY included, rather than just leaving it up to interpretation.”
The fact that this is even a topic of debate proves how stupid, as a society, we’ve gotten. Waterboarding is simulated drowning. Drowning is fatal. It is the threat of eminent death. End of fucking conversation. Anything tacked on after that is half-truths and excuses, where we’re no longer dealing with people operating in good faith, but people grasping at straws for bullshit excuses because torture sounds cool. It sure as shit can’t be because torture works, since just about every interrogator on the planet knows that it doesn’t. But this is what happens when policy on these things gets handed down from someone who shoots people in the face, then expects to be apologized to.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
yay! go seanbaby! thank you for working in another carlos mencia joke.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
thank you seanbaby
May 28th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
Also, is the information we got from them truly reliable? They were being tortured. How do we know that they were telling the truth and not just lying so that it would stop? Remember what I said about the catch 22 and Hobson’s choice. They say they got info, but is it truthful? Was it verified?
The only “terrorist” plots since 9/11 were some guy who saw too many movies and thought that he could set fire to an airport by dropping a match into a fuel line 30 miles away, and some idiots who thought they could take over a military base posing as pizza men.
What we should be worrying about is homeland security. The only way they could attack us is if they are already in America. I think that the CIA should check in on people who are actually associated with Al Qaeda and the Taliban, and make sure that they don’t have any posts here.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
“You know how we got the Con Ed Bomber and the Unibomber? Criminal psychology and profiling.”
Theodore Kaczynski (Unabomber) was diagnosed to be suffering from paranoid schizophrenia, while George Metesky (Con Ed bomber) was found legally insane & put up in a mental institute. Don’t assume that criminal psychology will always work when we are dealing with perfectly sane people like those in the Guantanamo bay.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
First of all, loaded question. I don’t hate America, I dislike certain government procedures. I severely dislike certain Americans who support the stereotype, i.e. the stupid, fat, creationist, fundie midwesterners and the Buy-Bull Belt.
If we supposedly got info that prevented attacks, then how come you’ve been saying this whole time that we don’t know whether they worked or not?
Actually, before 9/11, one prisoner voluntarily told the gov’t about a planned hijacking of a plane into the WTC. No need for any “interrogation” or anything like that. You know what we did? Ignored him. Who’s to blame for that? If Bush kept us so safe, why did 9/11 happen under his presidency?
May 28th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Oh and also CX, the military which you so unquestioningly support even admits that waterboarding is torture. I still find it interesting that when the Khmer Rouge does it, it’s called torture. But when Americans do it, it’s “enhanced interrogation”. Nice double standard, there.
You can drown without any liquid present. It’s called dry drowning. It’s caused by a laryngospasm, which produces the same reflex action that the body goes through when drowning, but without the water. Dry drowning is just as dangerous as drowning in water. In this case, the person is drowning in his own carbon dioxide.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
LOL @ Jeremiah
May 28th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
Well… that was a great way to avoid work for a whole day.
I thank you. America thanks you.
I’m off to the wig shop to get my wife a red wig. I’m going to put it on her and have her tell me all about how torture is “wrong” while I… convince her otherwise.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
This is the best thing I have ever read on this website ever. Ever ever ever. Ever.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
“Yes, it is our problem because that means no matter what we do, they wouldn’t say anything.”
You might be right… except that we supposedly got actionable intelligence from the three guys who were waterboarded that helped prevent attacks. If only Obama would release the redacted parts of those memos we could all see exactly what was learned. How about you jump on that “transparency” bandwagon with us, THEN we can have a meaningful discussion about whether waterboarding was warranted?
May 28th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Why do you hate America Anonymouse?
May 28th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
But again, we need to keep in context that they only did this to 3 high level guys and allegedly got good intell out of it.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
@Jeremiah
Yeah, I know it’s brainwashing. They brainwash you to kill without remorse and to have unquestioning loyalty to your leader. It’s a great recipe for PTSD.
*Braces for “Why do you hate America”*
May 28th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
We’re a long ways off from the Inquisition.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
“Not our problem”
Yes, it is our problem because that means no matter what we do, they wouldn’t say anything.
You know how we got the Con Ed Bomber and the Unibomber? Criminal psychology and profiling. Think about that. Why would they tell us anything if they’re fucked either way? If you want to catch a terrorist, you have to think like a terrorist.
Think about the Spanish Inquisition. Every single one “interrogated” confessed, whether they were innocent or not. The interrogatee is either going to lie or not say anything. It’s a Hobson’s choice.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
“You still had the choice in the first place whether to sign up. Again, you still are allowed to sleep. Not much, but it’s still something.
Personally, I don’t understand why they do it, since a night’s loss of sleep is basically the equivalent to lowering your IQ by 10 points. You can’t think quickly, you’re weak, listless, and can’t function optimally. I mean, yeah you get 20 minutes so you can function period, but it’s still pretty stupid if they’re looking for your best.”
That’s exactly why they do it. I might have to brace for impact, but I’ll say it anyway. Basic training is legalized brain washing. It takes a strong will to resist it. I saw some major changes in attitudes from people I went in with. Some of it for the better, mind you. But there is a reason they do things the way they do them.
“I mean, all this whining is basically the equivalent of “back in my day, we walked 10 miles to school every day in the snow!” Yeah, that was back in the day, when only 8% of doctors went to college and only 20% of students graduated high school. We adapt to make things better!”
I’m only 26- ’bout to be 27.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
You US citizens are lucky. You can switch to Canadian nationality. Spare a thought for us Brits. Where are we going to go? Irish, Australian, NZ, Iceland… They don’t give out passports/nationality swaps with Corn Flakes tops… not any more.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
Their skin doesn’t melt off by touching it, it melts off when they open it up and look at it. I mean, destroy it. Like, find the place where it is, and nuke it, leaving no trace. And I was talking to CavalierX, him being the neocon.
Ohh, you’re agnostic. Then you’re a libertarian.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
“Well, if what they say is true about the Ark, I’d tell them exactly where it was.
They touch it, or look at it, their skin melts off.”
Oh, yeah; good point.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
You still had the choice in the first place whether to sign up. Again, you still are allowed to sleep. Not much, but it’s still something.
Personally, I don’t understand why they do it, since a night’s loss of sleep is basically the equivalent to lowering your IQ by 10 points. You can’t think quickly, you’re weak, listless, and can’t function optimally. I mean, yeah you get 20 minutes so you can function period, but it’s still pretty stupid if they’re looking for your best.
I mean, all this whining is basically the equivalent of “back in my day, we walked 10 miles to school every day in the snow!” Yeah, that was back in the day, when only 8% of doctors went to college and only 20% of students graduated high school. We adapt to make things better!
May 28th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
Well, if what they say is true about the Ark, I’d tell them exactly where it was.
They touch it, or look at it, their skin melts off.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
“Would you, say, tell someone where the Ark of the Covenant is so they can destroy it, so that you wouldn’t be tortured- er, “interrogated”?”
No, because I would know that Indy is on his way to save me.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
“They’d rather die a martyr than give up. It’s how all radicals think. So they lie.”
That’s the theory.
This is exactly why we should demand that those portions that were redacted be let out. If we knew without a shadow of a doubt that actionable intelligence was gained that saved lives and thwarted a real plot (as is claimed) this entire argument would be moot.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
“CX, I already explained this. It’s a catch 22. If they talk, they’re indicting their friends and family, and, according to their strong beliefs, not get into heaven.”
Not our problem. Our aim is to prevent future terrorist attacks.
“You obviously have strong religious beliefs. ”
I’m agnostic, but nice try.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
@Chojinra-
“Not to add to this tortuously long comments section (git it?), but this article was hella funny. Kudos.”
Your argument fails!!!
Obviously, you’ve added to the comments section, so it quite illogical for you to say that you’re not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyKvD-4IxOY
See the guy dancing at 3:22? That’s me baby!
May 28th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
CX, I already explained this. It’s a catch 22. If they talk, they’re indicting their friends and family, and, according to their strong beliefs, not get into heaven. If they don’t, they get tortured…I mean “interrogated”. Nice choices. They’d rather die a martyr than give up. It’s how all radicals think. So they lie.
You obviously have strong religious beliefs. Would you, say, tell someone where the Ark of the Covenant is so they can destroy it, so that you wouldn’t be tortured- er, “interrogated”?
May 28th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
I tried to find the Red Cross documents that stated that prisoners were told they wouldn’t die by waterboarding, but can only find one article, at the Patriot Room, of which I’m…skeptical.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
“What if the terrorist knows nothing else?”
Only the highest level al-Qaeda operatives, who have resisted every other method of interrogation, have been waterboarded. It’s not for the low-level schlubs, but for the bosses.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
Not to add to this tortuously long comments section (git it?), but this article was hella funny. Kudos.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
From what I’ve researched, you’re given 20-30 minute breaks. They probably changed it since you were in basic training because someone died on the 4th day in CTT. It’s also only for 5 days, not 11. Even if you get only 20 minutes of sleep a day, it’s still something. If you have absolutely no sleep whatsoever, then you’re in danger. It’s common to even fall asleep while marching but and still be walking. I’ve also only heard of Hell Week in the BUD/S.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
@Cavalier
What if the terrorist knows nothing else?
May 28th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
@aeon
“Hell Week isn’t torture because the soldier has the choice to leave.”
Yes they have the choice. But did you know that making that choice will cause you to be in the basic training environment longer than if you just do it and graduate? It’s not like you can say, “Well, this just isn’t for me,” get a handshake and well wishes and be on your way. No no no. In fact, in many cases you get treated worse than those who stay in. As you progress in training, your priviledges increase. Not so for the guys who just want to leave.
People should make up their minds about the military before signing the contract that turns you into government property.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
“Hell Week isn’t torture because the soldier has the choice to leave.”
And the terrorist has the choice to talk. Check and mate.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
“CX, your section of the UN Charter calls sleep deprivation and waterboarding torture. ”
And the Justice Department provided legal proof that the interrogation methods used at Gitmo do not meet the standards set out by the UN charter. Are you done yet, or do you want to go around again?
May 28th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Anonymouse-
Do you support the UN? If so, then the case to go into Iraq is legit, unless you like that UN sanctions mean nothing.
Really, they thought we were the “evil American empire” without having to have “torture” as a reason.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
““We have a little thing called the Atlantic Ocean. Unless Canada or Mexico becomes our enemy, we’re safe from invasion. Now that we have better airport security, there’s no chance of someone getting away with a bomb on the flight. Also, flight attendants are trained in self defense. Besides, how are they going to get through customs in the first place?””
Don’t assume that terrorists would always use only one way to attack us like in the past. Also, we are never talking about invasion from other countries. That is never the problem. No country would dare to invade US, so that is a non issue. We are only worried about stealthy terrorist attacks that could be carried by people already living in US with the support of foreign terrorist organizations.
3 months ago, some Islamic terrorists, who are US citizens, were caught just before they tried to blow up LA airport, Jewish centres & other places. Their only aim is to kill as many people as possible. And your enhanced airport security or custom checks could not have done anything to stop them. Luckily, a small mistake from one of the plotters alerted the cops, who were able to thwart the plot, which was in an advanced stage. People could attack us in more ways than u can imagine.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Is it really that hard to hire someone to draw your comics for you? Cut and paste photoshop work is painfully low tech. The comic by itself, well…It sucked. It was badly written and all the jokes where shoddily strewn together not to mention the obvious daily show reference with dick Cheney being the penguin.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
“I support the war in Afghanistan and against Al Qaeda. What I don’t support is the Iraq War, because it was started on lies and false reports.”
You’re like a walking mass of discredited lies and old bullshit, did you know that? Lies and false reports my butt. Unless you’re about to accuse all these people of lying:
http://www.rightwingnews.com/quotes/demsonwmds.php
May 28th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
CX, your section of the UN Charter calls sleep deprivation and waterboarding torture. If it isn’t, try it yourself. The whole point of torture is to not be in danger of dying. The point is to cause pain. Feeling like you’re drowning is painful. Sleep deprivation and claustrophobia cause mental anguish, which is outlined by the UN. That’s torture. You said so yourself.
Also, I never said we were better, I said that we’re supposed to be better, like you jingoists keep saying. It’s called using your own argument against you.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
@jeremiah
Hell Week isn’t torture because the soldier has the choice to leave.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
“So the colonists during the Revolutionary War were war criminals?”
That law was made long after the Revolutionary War. But it is a geneva convention law.
“Obama was talking about differentiating between people who were wrongfully imprisoned without a trial and real terrorists.”
I’m pretty sure all criminals get imprisoned before their trials. Some can afford bail, others can’t, still others don’t get that opportunity.
“In Hell Week, you’re allowed 3 to 4 hours of sleep.”
Not the first couple days. I could have used those hours.
“You’re still getting some sleep. Sleep deprivation means they are allowed 0 hours of sleep for 11 days straight. And Hell Week is for Navy SEALS. They chose to participate. They signed up for it. The prisoners didn’t sign up for sleep deprivation. Don’t they say at the beginning of Hell Week something like “You can turn back now, if you’re scared”.
“Hell week” is used across all branches describing the first week of basic training. It’s the time that they, “break you down” so they can “build you up.”
May 28th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
No, they attacked us, so we attacked in defense. That’s different. I support the war in Afghanistan and against Al Qaeda. What I don’t support is the Iraq War, because it was started on lies and false reports.
What I mean is that if we’re supposed to be the good guys, then why are we acting like the bad guys? If we treated prisoners ethically and by the Geneva Convention, maybe they wouldn’t think we’re the “evil American empire” like they believe.
I’m talking about being superior to terrorists and extremists, not Muslims in general. Not all terrorists are Muslim. There are those Basque revolutionaries and the IRA.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
“Sounds racist. Doesn’t that sound racist?”
Or at least nationalist, or something. But hey, it’s so nice to hear a Liberal NOT attacking American values, I’ll let it slide.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
I do have to say that waterboarding and sleep depravation are both considered forms of torture. Though the victim is not receiving physical harm, sleep depravation can cause hallucinations and can eventually kill someone, and water boarding is just plain cruel. If someone did the same thing to a child or small animal people would be flipping out and ranting about how it is torture to a child or animal. Is a grown human any different? It would have the same effect, and is not the chinese water tortue less harmful than waterboarding? but in the name itself implies that it is torture. Just something to think about.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
“What about the lives lost? The more the war goes on, the more people are dying.”
Perhaps you can tell your terrorist friends to stop killing us just because we don’t follow their religion, okay?
“Now that we have better airport security”
So good, in fact, that an eight-year-old child can repeatedly slip past it.
http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa080527_wz_semaj.35724021.html
And why do you think airplanes are the only possible thing of interest to terrorists? A truck was used in the first WTC attack. The terrorists in Madrid and London used the train. Maybe you want to have police pat down random travelers in every NY subway station?
“The reason why torture is wrong and despicable is because we’re supposed to be superior. ”
Hey, good thing we don’t torture, then. I keep telling you that you can’t make your lies true by repetition.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
So the colonists during the Revolutionary War were war criminals? Obama was talking about differentiating between people who were wrongfully imprisoned without a trial and real terrorists.
In Hell Week, you’re allowed 3 to 4 hours of sleep. You’re still getting some sleep. Sleep deprivation means they are allowed 0 hours of sleep for 11 days straight. And Hell Week is for Navy SEALS. They chose to participate. They signed up for it. The prisoners didn’t sign up for sleep deprivation. Don’t they say at the beginning of Hell Week something like “You can turn back now, if you’re scared”.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
“That’s always the excuse given: saving lives. What about the lives lost? The more the war goes on, the more people are dying.”
Well, maybe the terrorists should’ve stopped trying to pick a fight?
“We have a little thing called the Atlantic Ocean. Unless Canada or Mexico becomes our enemy, we’re safe from invasion. Now that we have better airport security, there’s no chance of someone getting away with a bomb on the flight. Also, flight attendants are trained in self defense. Besides, how are they going to get through customs in the first place?”
Umm… we have ALOT of people in this country who didn’t exactly go through “customs”- unless you mean the time honored custom of tunneling or fence hopping.
“The reason why torture is wrong and despicable is because we’re supposed to be superior.”
Sounds racist. Doesn’t that sound racist?
“We’re supposed to be the good guys. We’re supposed to be above torture. It doesn’t matter if the enemy’s doing it. We’re supposed to be better than them. Torturing them only confirms their belief that America is evil and wants nothing more than to kill them.”
You know what else “confirms their belief that America is evil and wants nothing more than to kill them”? When we kill them. Doesn’t matter our reasons behind it. I mean, I guess if we stopped killing them their belief wouldn’t be “confirmed”… but then again it’s not like we struck first.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
“Cavalier, now don’t sleep well in a cold room on concrete while people blare loud music at you and occasionally point and laugh.”
Sounds like boot camp to me.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
That’s always the excuse given: saving lives. What about the lives lost? The more the war goes on, the more people are dying. We have a little thing called the Atlantic Ocean. Unless Canada or Mexico becomes our enemy, we’re safe from invasion. Now that we have better airport security, there’s no chance of someone getting away with a bomb on the flight. Also, flight attendants are trained in self defense. Besides, how are they going to get through customs in the first place?
The reason why torture is wrong and despicable is because we’re supposed to be superior. We’re supposed to be the good guys. We’re supposed to be above torture. It doesn’t matter if the enemy’s doing it. We’re supposed to be better than them. Torturing them only confirms their belief that America is evil and wants nothing more than to kill them.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Seanbaby continues to deliver a steaming pile of shit on Cracked’s front page.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
Fun fact-
Did you know that terrorists are by default war criminals?
If you engage in combat without having a uniform that sets you apart from civilians, you are a war criminal. I thought it was strange that Obama said we had to figure out who in Guantanamo was a “war criminal” or not. If they were engaging in any kind of fighting, they are war criminals by default.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
“You can certainly get a cat out of a tree by raping people under it until emergency vehicles scare it away.”
Excellent. Although you misspelled “vehicles” in the article. Unless that’s referencing some speech problem the Penguin has that I am unaware of.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
“hmm. cx. i guess the point that waterboarding is not toture has been proving. because now they are going for sleep deprivation.”
That’s pretty much my take on the switch in argument, too.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
“Waking up at 5am isn’t sleep deprivation and isn’t punishment. You’re allowed to sleep. You go to sleep at, what, 9pm or something and then get up at 5am. That’s not sleep deprivation. Sleep deprivation is not being allowed to sleep at all.”
Ever hear of “Hell Week”? That first week of basic? Believe me, you’re deprived of sleep that week.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
Waking up at 5am isn’t sleep deprivation and isn’t punishment. You’re allowed to sleep. You go to sleep at, what, 9pm or something and then get up at 5am. That’s not sleep deprivation. Sleep deprivation is not being allowed to sleep at all.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
no. thats what the argument was about. but now the argument expanded because your team failed. miserably.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
Water boarding & sleep deprivation may have been used when all the other methods might have failed to extract the information, that might have been important to national security. I guess these were used only as a last resort, to save the lives of innocent people. As other people mentioned, US did better when compared to torture methods used by other countries. I saw a program on TV that showed how Saddam & his son tortured people & gassed & killed innocent people & children. At least we did not sink to that level. Even countries like UK practiced torture on terror suspects. So, I don’t think, only US is the bad guy here. Every country had its share of bad deeds & we just cannot decide over the net on who did “better” in this regard.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
Well I wrote fuckload of arguments for each side and then accidently clicked on a link. Long post short, we went over there at a time when the middle east was fucked more than a female rabbit during mating season. After the Ottoman Empire was destroyed, America and Europe of course started to look at what the middle east had to offer and went to take it. This is the equivalent of your house burning down and when the fire is all put out, some people from across the street come over and take everything that isn’t charred ashes. Oh and they they piss all over what used to be your kitchen.
We should get out of there and let the bloodletting ensue of the peoples of the middle east until the governments left standing are unstable. Oh, and then stay out of there for even longer until a peaceful regime rises from the ashes or it’s more barren than Brittany Spear’s vagina. Whichever comes first. If they start to actually develop technology and are able to threaten us and do threaten us or we have reason to believe they will attack us, then we should attack them or be ready to attack them. You know, kinda like what we’re doing with every country in the middle east that isn’t a threat to us. Perhaps we should be focused on the one country that actually has the ability to develop nuclear weapons, which is Iran.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
*proven
May 28th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
funnyman, the whole point of this argument is whether or not America tortured prisoners, not whether waterboarding is or isn’t torture.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
So I guess every person who enters basic training is tortured.
So it’s okay to torture our troops, but we can’t do it to terrorists?
May 28th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
hmm. cx. i guess the point that waterboarding is not toture has been proving. because now they are going for sleep deprivation.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
“I was grumpy this morning because I didn’t sleep well last night. By your loose definition, I have been tortured.”
Now you are just being silly. I said my peace, bye.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
It’s not torture if you had trouble sleeping last night. It’s torture when someone is intentionally trying to prevent you from sleeping. Keyword: intentionally. Not like your roommate is being loud and it’s bothering you. Not like there’s a party next door. No, someone is specifically trying to keep you awake for long periods of time as punishment.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
Cavalier, now don’t sleep well in a cold room on concrete while people blare loud music at you and occasionally point and laugh.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
“The legal definition of torture does not include personal feelings, as far as I can tell. Whatever they feel, they are specifically told that the procedure will not kill them, therefore the interrogators cannot be accused of using fear of imminent death against them.”
It is a physical feeling of that follows elevated blood levels of carbondioxide. You can’t expect any reassurance that contradicts what your own body is telling you, so your argument falls flat.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
Oh, speaking of those photos that Obama hasn’t released, do you want to know what’s in them? Google the name “Major General Antonio Taguba”, then come back here and tell everyone that we don’t do torture.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
Torture is carefully calculated so that the victim won’t die, but they’ll still hurt. This is how it has worked throughout history and around the world. The point of torture is not to kill, but to cause pain. You seem to not understand that. Just because they PLANNED to sleep deprive them with drugs, doesn’t mean it’s not torture. Sleep deprivation for 1 night sucks. For 2, it’s hell. I can’t image what 11 nights would be like. You’ve obviously never had insomnia or worked the night shift, or else you’d understand what it’s like.
So if the Hanoi Hotel does it, it’s torture. But if we do it, it’s “enhanced interrogation”. Nice jingoism there.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
“Well, sleep deprivation does disrupt your senses and personality.”
I was grumpy this morning because I didn’t sleep well last night. By your loose definition, I have been tortured.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
Well, sleep deprivation does disrupt your senses and personality. No one can safely say what the effects would be on any one individual, so you can’t feign ignorance on that one.
But go ahead and decieve yourself that the US is not conducting torture, if that makes life easier for you
May 28th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
“So by saying they will not die, you can ignore the physical sensation of the mock execution, that your body is telling you you are about to die.”
The legal definition of torture does not include personal feelings, as far as I can tell. Whatever they feel, they are specifically told that the procedure will not kill them, therefore the interrogators cannot be accused of using fear of imminent death against them.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
Yeah, exactly. 11 days of sleep deprivation is pretty extreme. You keep ignoring the part where they say “mental anguish”.
So now we have a list of things to do for you:
1. Waterboarding
2. Sleep deprivation
I’ve not only been nearly drowned, sleep deprived, but I’ve also suffered from heat stroke. I’d call it painful. You can look it up: you can die after 10 days of no sleep. You’ll die of insomnia before you’ll die of hunger. This are fact (EXPLAINING JOKES FOR PEOPLE WITH NO SENSE OF HUMOR: That is supposed to be a joke from the internet. The grammar is intentionally skewed).
May 28th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
@Anonymouse
Yeah, I get that a lot. It’s probably the long red hair.
I should have known you were a red head!! I used to date a red headed girl.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
CX: So by saying they will not die, you can ignore the physical sensation of the mock execution, that your body is telling you you are about to die.
I applaud your ability to decieve yourself, well done.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Sucked. I could only make it about a 1/3 of the way through.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
“Extended sleep deprivation would fall under “(2) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality”. Again, torture.”
Sorry, another good try, but the effects are carefully calculated so as not to be permanent. Therefore, they don’t quite rise to the lkevel of torture.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
That one line about the frosting was really good. And sadly relevant. The ending was pretty damn funny.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
I´m fairly sure the past tense of shit is shat. Could be only british english though.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
Anonymouse-
Maybe if we actually had “scientific evidence” of what we got from these techniques, we could really delve into their merits. Until Obama releases those redacted portions, we’ll never truly know.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Extended sleep deprivation would fall under “(2) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality”. Again, torture.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
“Waterboarding is a mock execution. As stated before “(3) the threat of imminent death” is torture, thus waterboarding is torture.”
That might be true, except that the subjects are told they will not be killed. Sorry. Good try, though.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
@Jeremiah
Yeah, I get that a lot. It’s probably the long red hair.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
@Lucidan
there is no threat of imminent death when using waterboarding.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
I was Air Force, btw. Medical too. So I was like the furthest you can get from being in the military while still actually being in the military.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
“By the UN’s definition, not only is waterboarding torture”
Learn to read. Here’s the refuation for you once again:
We conclude below that Section 2340A proscribes acts inflicting, and that are specifically intended to inflict, severe pain or suffering, whether mental or physical. Those acts must be of an extreme nature to rise to the level of torture within the meaning of Section 2340A and the Convention. We further conclude that certain acts may be cruel, inhuman, or degrading, but still not produce pain and suffering of the requisite intensity to fall within Section 2340A’s proscription against torture.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/documents/dojinterrogationmemo20020801.pdf
May 28th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
Or, we could just look at scientific evidence, which you neocons hate so much, and find out that after 10-11 days of insomnia, you risk death. Even better, you could try it yourself. As a bio major, I know that after 5 days of no sleep, one starts to hallucinate. Would you trust the information someone who’s hallucinating and sleep-deprived tells you? Just in general. Anyone who’s worked the night shift or had severe insomnia can vouch that there’s a reason why sleep deprivation is used as torture.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:06 pm
Aww hell naw!
Who called the Grammar Cop?
May 28th, 2009 at 12:06 pm
@ ´mouse: Just let it go. You´re up against an immovable force there with Jeremiah. Army guys have usually been so intimately involved with all sorts of shit that their perception of shit tends to be a bit skewed. It´s not wrong, it´s not right, it just happens. And if such an individual happens to be a fairly good writer and, *insert preferred divine entity here* forbid, bored, one is very difficult to beat in an interwebz argument about quietly sanctioned army procedures.
However, it´s been fairly entertaining hera and there. Thank you to all parties. Proceeding to get drunk.
(Yeah, I´m bored too.)
May 28th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
The past tense of shit is shit. Just because it rhymes with sit doesn’t mean if follows sit’s rules… ROWR!
May 28th, 2009 at 12:04 pm
@Anonymouse
“There’s that too, but that doesn’t bother me as much as the “your/you’re” thing.”
I find you strangely attractive now. :/
May 28th, 2009 at 12:04 pm
lol @jeremiah
we better call it quits!
May 28th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Phew… I thought you left.
Sweetie… since you wanna play grammar police, your last sentence should read, “Those constitute psychological torture.” The “as” is completely unnecessary.
Until you fix it your argument is moot. MOOT I SAY!!
May 28th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Hahahahaha fuck yes
May 28th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Waterboarding is a mock execution. As stated before “(3) the threat of imminent death” is torture, thus waterboarding is torture.
It’s funny how the US is outspoken when it comes to a mock trial in another nation, while some of their own prisoners are tortured and never tried in any court whatsoever, guilty by association.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
“Do they seriously think that after 11 days of sleeplessness, which is deadly, that the prisoner is going to be coherent enough to give information?”
Get Obama to release the other half of the Gitmo documents, and then we’ll know.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
@Jeremiah
There’s that too, but that doesn’t bother me as much as the “your/you’re” thing.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
Let’s say, for all intents and purposes, that waterboarding isn’t torture. What about the psychological torture? Like the sleep deprivation. Do they seriously think that after 11 days of sleeplessness, which is deadly, that the prisoner is going to be coherent enough to give information? After 5 days of insomnia, one starts hallucinating. Or, how about standing out in the sun for days on end? Heat stroke, much? How about putting a claustrophobe in a dark box barely big enough for the prisoner to lie in the fetal position?
Those constitute as psychological torture.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
Dammit funnyman! Use capital letters!!! Your lack of proper grammar invalidates our entire position!!!
NOOOO!!!!
May 28th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
grammar has absolutely nothing to do with this argument.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:57 am
One thing-
Grammar is much more than just spelling. Why haven’t you brought up the lack of capital letters at the beginning of sentences?
May 28th, 2009 at 11:56 am
Your such a bad girl.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:55 am
oh wow. ok. still doesnt change the fact that waterboarding isnt torture. and neither is gitmo.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:55 am
Oh and before someone brings up the death penalty, I honestly don’t care about it. Seriously, I have no opinion on it. So don’t bother using it on me.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:53 am
Having someone say “your stupid”, who claims to be over the age of 12, come into a debate about the intricacies of the Geneva Convention is like having a 5 year old walk up to a couple of lawyers talking about the death penalty and say “You kill people? Killing people is wrong”. They can’t even write, what place do they have talking about international law?
May 28th, 2009 at 11:50 am
@Anonymouse
That particular bit of poor grammar annoys me as well, but since we’re not in an English class we should just stick with the topic. It’s quite common for people to go off on tangents un-related to the actual argument as a way to wiggle out of making coherent points that are topic related.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:50 am
You’re doing it again!
My not? What about my not? I have a not?
By the UN’s definition, not only is waterboarding torture, but their locking up people in small cells and sleep deprivation is also torture.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:47 am
@Anonymouse
but your not portraying yourself like one if one misspelled word gets your panties in a bunch.
waterboarding isnt torture. and thats final.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:47 am
@Jeremiah
I have no respect for someone who claims to be an adult and can’t even tell the difference between “your/you’re” or “there/their/they’re”. If you can’t comprehend basic grammar, unless English is a second language, then you have no place debating complicated legal proceedings.
I’ve also been talking to different people at the same time.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:44 am
maybe the japense should start torturing americans to find out if they are planning another hiroshima attack
May 28th, 2009 at 11:44 am
@funnyman
Because I can actually spell like an adult.
“your stupid”… oy vey…
May 28th, 2009 at 11:44 am
Looks like Anonymouse has taken the route of all failed arguments.
Ad hom attacks. Check.
Criticizing spelling. Check.
Ridiculing ignorance unrelated to the topic. Check.
Tying desperately to get off the actual topic at hand. Check.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:43 am
By that definition, locking an entomophobic up in a small cage with a bug would also counts as torture because it causes prolonged mental harm and pain. That means they did torture.
Leaving someone standing in an uncomfortable position long enough to cause pain would also be torture. Locking up a claustrophobe in a small dark cage is also torture because it would cause mental anguish.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:42 am
“you have no place defining legal terms and debating the use of cruel and unusual punishment”
oh really. and you have a place in this debate because?
May 28th, 2009 at 11:40 am
“Wow, Jeremiah… just wow… welcome to the internet, noob.
Gang of Pedophiles = GOP = Republicans
The military really will take anyone nowadays.”
I guess being a “noob” is a bad thing? Not knowing internet jargon makes me stupid, I guess?
Your parents must have kicked you down the stairs when you would fall while trying to learn how to walk.
I love how you think that you’ve somehow disqualified my opinions though. It’s cute.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:40 am
How delusional do you have to be to think that it isn’t torture?
May 28th, 2009 at 11:39 am
@funnyman
If you can’t even spell, you have no place defining legal terms and debating the use of cruel and unusual punishment. Go back to elementary school and then we can talk.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:38 am
@ Anonymouse:
Here’s the legal definition of torture, according to the UN Convention Against Torture:
In order to constitute torture, an act must be specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering and that mental pain or suffering refers to prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from (1) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering; (2) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality; (3) the threat of imminent death; or (4) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality.
As I have already shown you, waterboarding at Gitmo does not “rise to the level of torture.” Sorry. You’ll have to take your emotional “arguments” elsewhere.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:38 am
*just obviously
May 28th, 2009 at 11:38 am
no one is justifying torture. because waterboarding is not torture.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:37 am
“Your obviously just confused”
If you can’t even spell right, you have no place arguing politics. You are not smarter than a 5th grader. Goodbye.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:37 am
You have to be pretty sick in the head to justify torture
May 28th, 2009 at 11:36 am
Wow, Jeremiah… just wow… welcome to the internet, noob.
Gang of Pedophiles = GOP = Republicans
The military really will take anyone nowadays.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:36 am
waterboarding is not torture. your just obviously confused.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:35 am
“Okay, I have a legal dictionary right here. “Torture” goes under “cruel and unusual punishment”, which is in the Constitution.”
Constitution applies to US citizens. Try again.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:34 am
Waterboarding is torture. You’re just trying to doll it up with pretty language.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:34 am
yeahh. luckily for the terrorists america does not torture. we waterboard.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:34 am
“Those were notes and memos on the Department of Justice approving torture. Not what they got out of it. Go reread DOB’s article on it.”
Are you seriously trying to tell me that you’re referencing Cracked for your news? The memos I’m referring to are interrogation memos that tell, for instance, what we did to Khalid Sheik Mohamed and what he told us after we did it, which was redacted.
“If it prevented any plots, the news would be all over it. Remember “freedom of the press”? I thought the Gang of Pedophiles was all about censorship”
It was top secret. The press wouldn’t know about it.
Who’s this, “Gang of Pedophiles”?
May 28th, 2009 at 11:33 am
“You people who support torture do know that people FUCKING LIE WHEN THEY’RE TORTURED, right?”
So it’s a good thing we don’t torture, then.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:33 am
“I thought the Gang of Pedophiles was all about censorship.”
Yes, please tell us why Obama and his gang, as you put it, are censoring the parts of the memos where the RESULTS of Gitmo interrogations were shown.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:32 am
You people who support torture do know that people FUCKING LIE WHEN THEY’RE TORTURED, right?
May 28th, 2009 at 11:31 am
“Those were notes and memos on the Department of Justice approving torture.”
No, there weren’t. There were notes and memos, to which I’ve already linked, which stated that waterboarding as performed at Gitmo does not meet the standard for torture. Waterboarding, not being torture, can be used. The fact that you have to lie about the contents of those memos tells me that you can’t support your argument with facts.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:31 am
You want a legal dictionary? Okay, I have a legal dictionary right here. “Torture” goes under “cruel and unusual punishment”, which is in the Constitution.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:31 am
@Elenafis
“Kim Jong 2″?
Did… did you mean Kim Jong Il, and then just read “Il” as “2″? Like as in World War II?
You just proved that all of your information on anything has come from the internet. Good luck gaining any sort of respect in any further arguments.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:29 am
Can someone post the Yiddish defintion of torture? That has some sort of authority over the law, right?
May 28th, 2009 at 11:29 am
Those were notes and memos on the Department of Justice approving torture. Not what they got out of it. Go reread DOB’s article on it.
If it prevented any plots, the news would be all over it. Remember “freedom of the press”? I thought the Gang of Pedophiles was all about censorship.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:28 am
@elenafis
You got my number
May 28th, 2009 at 11:26 am
“Okay, how about the most respected English dictionary in the world, the OED?”
How about the LEGAL definition of torture, which I’ve already shown you waterboarding at Gitmo does not meet?
May 28th, 2009 at 11:25 am
“If we get lots of information already, according to you, then why do we need to waterboard in the first place?”
Because some people are trained in terrorist training camps to resist less intensive methods of interrogation. Seriously, did you just fall off the turnip truck or something?
May 28th, 2009 at 11:25 am
@booyah
So UK “outsources” torture to other countries like Pakistan while US does it itself in Guantanamo. I don’t see any difference! At least US didnot lie like UK that it doesn’t any practice torture!
May 28th, 2009 at 11:25 am
Okay, how about the most respected English dictionary in the world, the OED?
the infliction of severe pain as a punishment or a forcible means of persuasion.
That’s waterboarding.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:25 am
umm.. there are professionals in gitmo to make sure no pain is caused. no damage to be done.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:25 am
@ booyah:
So it’s only wrong if it happened recently? What’s your timeline then? When is it okay? Brittain has one of the most violent oppressive histories in, erm, history.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:25 am
Actually, ALL CAPS is used to RE-ITERATE a point that was already made. I assumed the letters were too small the first time you read it, so I thought I would help you by making them bigger.
I should have known that this was a reading comprehension issue rather than a vision problem.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:24 am
“actually that is the definition of torture”
The English language definition of a word is not the legal definition of an act. By that definition, my earlier reference to a job I hated is also torture. Where can I apply for recompense?
May 28th, 2009 at 11:23 am
“How was it proven? Well, what info did we get? What terrorist plots did we stop? How come none of the victims talked?”
Tell Obama to release the information and you’ll get your answers.
We’re all talking about things that were TOP SECRET. The fact that we know about any of this can be seen as a breach of national security. But the Prez wants to politicise this issue and ironically accuse the other side of doing so. All he has to do is release the redacted sections of the memos and we’ll all have our answers.
You guys realize that redaction basically means, “censored” right? I just don’t get how Obama gets a pass on his claims of transparency in government when he redacts sections of memos that, according to those who’ve seen them, contradict his position in a political argument.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:23 am
You don’t have to be in Gitmo to try it yourself. Lie down, put a towel on your face, and have someone pour water on your head. While you’re gasping for breath, sputtering like an idiot crying for help and passing out, then I’ll be satisfied.
@CavalierX
If we get lots of information already, according to you, then why do we need to waterboard in the first place?
May 28th, 2009 at 11:23 am
“And CavalierX, they have found grannies sneaking guns into airports by stuffing them into knitting balls and kids having guns stuffed into teddy bears.”
But were they terrorists? No, I don’t think so. We’re discussing stopping a coordinated terrorist attack, not Grandma taking her pea-shooter when she goes on vacation. And what makes you think terrorists only know how to use airplanes? I don’t recall any airplanes being involved in the London Tube bombing or Madrid.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:22 am
You know why I love political articles on Cracked?
They’re hilarious. Then you get a zillion idiots in the comments filled with butthurt and self-righteousness trying to give their opinion on the issue, and usually getting it so very, very wrong.
Let it go, people.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:22 am
Most European countries definitely would, and in all probability have tortured suspected terrorists. It´s just that we do a better job at keeping a lid on it.
Just saying.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:21 am
@ CavalierX
actually that is the definition of torture….
1 a: anguish of body or mind : agony b: something that causes agony or pain
2: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/torture
May 28th, 2009 at 11:21 am
I am aware of the UKs far than perfect history of dealing with ‘terroists’ but there never has been a UK version of Guantanamo. Atleast not lately, anyway.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:20 am
“Sounds like waterboarding to me.”
Fail again. When did the Merriam-Webster dictionaey become the legal standard? Please do better next time.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:20 am
ZOMG ALL CAPS MAKZ ME SOWND MOAR SRS!!11 CAPS LOCK IS CRUZ CONTROL 4 KEWL!!!!111!!1!!11!
May 28th, 2009 at 11:19 am
“When a person is being tortured if it is bad enough they will do anything to get it to stop including *GASP* lie some more. Torture does not increase the accuracy of information it just increases the volume of information divulged.”
Good thing we don’t torture, then.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:19 am
hmm. it is not deadly when there are people who know what they are doing over seeing the waterboarding. it causes discomfort at most. no pain. and why dont i try it myself? because im not in gitmo. im not withholding terrorist information.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:18 am
@Booyah
Lol…..Ur talking abt UK?? Then u better take a look at this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/22/torture-pakistan-human-rights
May 28th, 2009 at 11:18 am
@CavalierX
Definition from Merriam-Webster:
the infliction of intense pain; to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure.
Pain? Check
Punishment? check
Coersion? Check
Sadistic? Check plus.
Sounds like waterboarding to me.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:17 am
“Yes we could also take cutting someone’s nuts off and call it “not torture”. Waterboarding does meet the legal definition of torture. It causes mental anguish which could be permanent.”
But that’s NOT the legal definition. I already provided you with that, and showed you proof that waterboarding at Gitmo is not torture. Stop trying to change the definition to suit your argument.
“The number of terrorists has increased, that’s just a simple fact. I don’t know these people and I don’t have a list”
Then why do you feel qualified to make a definite statement concerning their motivation?
“Ah, I see. You’re functionally retarded.”
Yawn. Is that the best you can do?
May 28th, 2009 at 11:16 am
“It’s still depriving the body of oxygen and causing a build-up of carbon dioxide in the bloodstream, which is still DEADLY, no matter how you do it.”
IT DEPENDS ON THE LENGTH OF TIME. WE HAD MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS THERE TO ENSURE WE WEREN’T DOING ANY REAL DAMAGE.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:16 am
How was it proven? Well, what info did we get? What terrorist plots did we stop? How come none of the victims talked?
And CavalierX, they have found grannies sneaking guns into airports by stuffing them into knitting balls and kids having guns stuffed into teddy bears. Everyone has to be treated equally. And it actually stopped a guy who was going to bomb a plane with his shoes.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:16 am
@elenafis, there has been significant terrorist activity in the UK since the IRAs campaign in the 1970s to the Al Quaeda 7/7 bombings. More people have been killed than your poxy 9/11 you americans are always blubbering about
May 28th, 2009 at 11:15 am
When a person is being tortured if it is bad enough they will do anything to get it to stop including *GASP* lie some more. Torture does not increase the accuracy of information it just increases the volume of information divulged.
I also think that there is some confusion as to what people who are against torture are actually protesting. I personally wish all those people who are responsible for 9/11 to die horrible deaths. The problem isn’t whether or not they deserve it; it’s that by torturing them we lose the right to stand on the moral high ground. One can’t make a set of rules for the way a nation conducts itself and then only follow them when it’s convenient. That undermines the whole set of rules.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:15 am
@Jules-
“Taking them to another country and putting them into a jail and still calling it a combat situation is a big stretch man. Shooting a terrorist in the face because there is real and actual danger is okay, torturing them when there is no danger isn’t.”
Ever hear of rendition? Obama kept that going. If there is a plot, then that is a real danger. If we know of the plot, but need specifics, then we should get those specifics. Do you disagree?
“I never said they were justified, I said they had a reason. I was referring to your claims that they were irrational america-hating towelheads.”
No need for the racism. I didn’t say anything racist. I did say that they hate America for being America though. Has more to do with their skewed religious beliefs, kinda like why the KKK hates black people.
Also, pointing out that there is a reason behind an action is moot. What point were you trying to make? On one hand you say it’s not justified, but imply that it’s rational. Well, I kind of think that rationality and justification are pretty closely related. Is it not justified to be rational?
May 28th, 2009 at 11:13 am
“Torture, by definition, is interrogation by causing pain.”
Wrong again. You keep trying to change the definition, but it won’t work.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:13 am
@booyah
Yeah right! You know each & every detail of the “torture” methods used by the countries that u have mentioned, as they make every thing public like the USA does!!
Also, how many terrorist attacks occured in Australia, New Zealand & Japan in the recent past? Why would they need to interrogate any one, if there were no significant terrorist attacks against their countries in the 1st place?
May 28th, 2009 at 11:13 am
Internet semantics, what a wonderful thing!
May 28th, 2009 at 11:12 am
“Right. Europe isn’t racist at all!!”
Not compared to Yankland USA it isnt
May 28th, 2009 at 11:11 am
The physical sensation of drowning is still painful. Torture, by definition, is interrogation by causing pain. It’s still depriving the body of oxygen and causing a build-up of carbon dioxide in the bloodstream, which is still DEADLY, no matter how you do it.
If you have no problem with it, why don’t you do it yourself? Submit a video showing you doing it. If you don’t, you’re just like any other yellow elephant. You know what they say, don’t knock it till you try it.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:09 am
“It’s been proven that torture isn’t effective.”
How was it “proven”? When Obama redacted the info we gained from it? Is that “proof”?
May 28th, 2009 at 11:08 am
@CavalierX
~~I’m sorry, but one person’s subjective feeling has nothing at all to do with the legal definition of torture, which waterboarding does not meet. I could say that reading all these idiots ranting about torture is torture; does that mean Cracked is guilty of torture just because I say so? Your “argument” is a fail.~~
Yes we could also take cutting someone’s nuts off and call it “not torture”. Waterboarding does meet the legal definition of torture. It causes mental anguish which could be permanent.
“Okay, well let’s have the list then. … Oh, a definitive statement made without any evidence to back it up? What a surprise.”
The number of terrorists has increased, that’s just a simple fact. I don’t know these people and I don’t have a list
“Is is when our soldiers do not torture. Please stop mindlessly parroting al-Qaeda propoganda.”
Ah, I see. You’re functionally retarded.
~~I’ll trivialise anything I want, particularly since that’s exactly what happens. In American waterboarding, the water does not enter the nasal or oral cavities. The water is poured over the face, and the subject feels as though he’s drowning, but there is no possibility of that happening unless Liberals drown him with their tears.~~
Torture isn’t defined by “it might kill you”, that’s a completely retarded definition.
@Jeremiah
~~Where were they captured and by whom? If it’s in a combat situation, then that’s what it is. Most of the people at Gitmo were captured by the military.~~
Taking them to another country and putting them into a jail and still calling it a combat situation is a big stretch man. Shooting a terrorist in the face because there is real and actual danger is okay, torturing them when there is no danger isn’t.
~~You just said that some terrorists are justified in joining their respective terror groups. I disagree.
The fact is that there is nothing justifiable behind what they do. I don’t like the way China treats it’s people. I could find many examples of “human rights” violations. Does that give me the right to start bombing anything related to the Chinese?~~
I never said they were justified, I said they had a reason. I was referring to your claims that they were irrational america-hating towelheads.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:08 am
“All these countries rightly see America for what it is, the most rascist, brutal and primitive country in the civilised world.”
Pfft… HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Right. Europe isn’t racist at all!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Europe
May 28th, 2009 at 11:07 am
Ummmm…. I am starting o think that the conservatives made a secret law while Bush was in office saying that only liberals can go to jail, because none of you seem to realize that JAIL FUCKING SUCKS. Air conditioning? Yes. Food? Yes. Not being raped? Fuck no.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:07 am
Besides that, democratic countries may as well be bew nations every 20 years or so: The policy makers will by and large have been replaced by new ones; the voting body will have changed by at least a third. 20 years from now, this will not be the same america as today.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:06 am
lol that was great.
Also i’m listnening to dream police right now. cool.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:05 am
No, I’d want them to be treated like any other high-security prisoner. It’s been proven that torture isn’t effective. Again, you’re taking your ideas of terrorists from 24. Plots don’t work like that. No terrorist plot is as convoluted or intricate as they are on tv, so as interrogating them will set off a chain reaction of capturing a suspected terrorist.
Again, we have tighter airport security so things like 9/11 won’t happen again. The only possible terrorist attack that we haven’t prepared for is an inside job. Otherwise, we’re fine.
I never said I wanted them to be given a cushy life in prison. I just don’t want to see my people who are supposed to be the good guys and superior to the terrorists resorting to terrorist tactics.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:05 am
“All these techniques are routinely used by almost every country to interrogate those, who might be a threat to their country”?
Wrong, my freind. No country in EUROPE, Australia or New Zealand or Japan uses these methods. All these countries rightly see America for what it is, the most rascist, brutal and primitive country in the civilised world.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:04 am
No country in the world is above reproach. I defy ANYONE to list any country that has done no wrong within the last 200 years.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:04 am
If Obama would release the redacted part of the memos, then the argument about what we got out of it and whether it’s effective would be put to rest.
Why would he release what we did, but not what we got? Could it be that it contradicts his opinion? Why else would Mr. Transparency redact his own “openness in government” doctrine?
May 28th, 2009 at 11:02 am
“Waterboarding creates the physical sensation of drowning.”
But is not, in fact, drowning. Thanks for playing.
“You know why there hasn’t been another 9/11? Because of tighter airport security.”
Yeah, those blue-haired grandmas from Boise could be concealing bombs disguised as balls of knitting yarn. Airport security is a worse joke now than before 9/11.
“If torture prevented terrorist attacks, then how come there weren’t terrorist attacks from overseas during the Clinton administration?”
Waterboarding does not prevent terrorist attacks. Information prevents terrorist attacks. And I guess you’re just too young to remember the 1993 World Trade Center bombing.
May 28th, 2009 at 11:00 am
my thoughts exactly jeremiah
May 28th, 2009 at 10:59 am
Waterboarding creates the physical sensation of drowning. Oxygen deprivation, asphyxiation, and carbon dioxide build-up is dangerous and painful, no matter what causes it. Strangling yourself causes the same effects as drowning.
Torturing isn’t tricking someone into talking. Take for example what I just did. You just admitted that people who underwent waterboarding are victims.
You know why there hasn’t been another 9/11? Because of tighter airport security. Not torture.
If torture prevented terrorist attacks, then how come there weren’t terrorist attacks from overseas during the Clinton administration?
Waterboarding isn’t a metaphor. How about you learn what a metaphor is?
May 28th, 2009 at 10:58 am
“Obviously, being the good ol’ boy jock, you never got into trouble in high school, being captain of the football team and all.”
Now that’s deep-seated bitterness if I’ve ever heard it. Maybe you should see someone qualified to help you deal with your resentment of athletes and people in positions of authority.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:57 am
” No matter what they do, they’re fucked. What would you do in that situation? Endanger the lives of your friends and family or get tortured? It’s a Hobson’s choice.”
So, you apparently would rather we treat them kindly and get no information? What if they know about a plot that goes down? Would you volunteer to tell the victim’s families that, although we could have extracted the information if we got a little tough with this guy, we can stand on a moral pedestal because we treated them so well?
I know if I lost a loved one and found out later that a guy who knew about it was getting 3 hots and cot on a daily basis while living in a nice, air-conditioned building I would be extremely pissed.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:57 am
@ Anonymous
“The whole point is to be BETTER than them. Remember what your mom told you as a kid: if everyone was jumping off of a cliff, would you go too?”
True!! Thats why they used a better method like”waterboarding” & not other methods like slitting throats with blunt knife or ramming chilly powder up all the natural orifices or pulling away nails slowly or electrocuting private parts or driving nails into skull or removing the skin slowly. All these techniques are routinely used by almost every country to interrogate those, who might be a threat to their country. Of course, dictators like Saddam Hussein & Kim Jong 2 used worse methods.
Social Engineering?? Psychology?? Wow!! Lets all get rid of our army then & try this social engineering & psychology thing on people who attack USA! These prisoners are some of the worst “brainwashed” people, who could do anything to satisfy their religious fanaticism. Did u ever give a thought that ur social engineering or psychology stuff might not have worked on these people? Do u think they used waterboarding on each & every prisoner as soon as they were captured? They must have used this on few high value prisoners only after all the other methods might have failed. May be they were forced to use them so as to get more info from them to prevent future attacks & save the lives of innocent people. And if you are saying that the only way of any interrogation should be this social engineering & nothing else, then good luck with that!!
May 28th, 2009 at 10:56 am
Ro said:
“Its not like the world started watching the atrocities you do to people yesterday, pretty much everybody will continue hating you for what you did even if you stop doing it.”
Okay, so, earlier I stated that we Americans are deluded into thinking we’re arbiters of global grooviness. All the same, Ro, y’all can kiss our star-spangled asses. Honestly, there’s no reason to take shit off some douchey Old Worlders whose only claim to fame is that their heads have been up their asses centuries longer.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:55 am
well. terrorist endanger the lives of my friends and my family. so id prefer if they got waterboarded anyways.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:53 am
And what did I tell you about the catch 22? No matter what they do, they’re fucked. What would you do in that situation? Endanger the lives of your friends and family or get tortured? It’s a Hobson’s choice.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:51 am
“When you say a job you hate is torture, that’s a metaphor. Of course it’s not the equivalent of sticking a coke bottle up your ass.”
And neither is SIMULATED drowning in which no water enters the lungs.
“The feeling of drowning is painful. I know from personal experience. I know the fear you get from feeling your lungs fill with water…”
…which does not happen in Gitmo waterboarding. When will you quit crying over the discomfort of people who are actively trying to commit mass murder? I guess you’d actually prefer a few more 9/11s to a single terrorist leader not having his pillows fluffed before he cries himself to sleep at night. Hey, here’s a novel idea: how about if they fucking TALK when asked, before it even gets to the interrogation stage? Never thought of that, did you?
May 28th, 2009 at 10:51 am
your a near drowning victim. not a waterboarding victim. there is so much difference there. waterboarding is not near drowning, it only gives off the illusion, or trick as you say to get them to talk.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:48 am
As a near-drowning victim, I can tell you from personal experience that it causes pain.
How dare you compare wedgies to waterboarding. Wedgies aren’t used to get info, they’re used for bullying.
If you say it doesn’t cause pain, then why don’t you go do it yourself?
May 28th, 2009 at 10:48 am
BTW-
I’m a veteran. I don’t take my view of terrorist’s from “tv.” I know too many people that have dealt with them firsthand.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:46 am
Again, you’re referencing parents taking advantage of children.
We’re not dealing with children here. Kids are easy to fool. Militants are not children. Add to that they’ve got their beliefs and loyalty to their brothers to strengthen their resolve and I guarantee you that you can’t just trick them into saying something they shouldn’t say.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:46 am
is giving someone a wedgie torture? because wedgies cause pain, and in severe cases cause asshole bleeding lol. but it is not torture tho it is usually used to get info. waterboarding has no long term damage. and causes only discomfort. no pain. water boarding to terrorist is like wedgies to kids. it sucks but you’ll live.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:45 am
@mjmojo
For fuck’s sake, Dick isn’t the Joker. He’s the Penguin, hence the WARK! The Joker doesn’t smoke.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:44 am
I wasn’t a “jock.” In fact, I’m pretty sure I got into about as much (if not more) trouble than you did. The cop told me he, “hated kids like me” because I denied everything, even when they had evidence against me.
I also think it’s funny that you’re equating a guidance counselor talking to you to being interrogated by the military.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:43 am
Since you take your view of terrorists from tv, lets look at another show. Haven’t you learned anything from House? Anyone can be tricked into telling the truth. If the CIA was filled with a team of Houses, we’d know exactly where Osama is.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:43 am
seanbaby is a great addition to the team
May 28th, 2009 at 10:42 am
Wow! The comic was far more entertaining - and comprehensive - than the argument instigated by Mr. EMT Anonymous. Just jealous? Of what? How awesome Americans are? Let’s look at our social policies…yeah, we’re pretty awesome right now.
I wanted to say to seanbaby - awesome, fucking hilarious. Very eloquent. Love Dick as the Joker…and the Mencia reference. Thanks for taking this important subject to pop comedy readers like me!
May 28th, 2009 at 10:40 am
Farting into someone’s mouth is annoying, but it doesn’t cause pain. Unless they happen to be allergic to farts.
To convince someone like that, you could say, show a video of an actor going through something they said they would do. Or say that they already know, but to be extremely vague. Parents exploit this all the time. Like, if the parent sees their kid acting differently, they can just say “I know what you did last week”, and the kid asks how and the parent says “I have my ways” so the kid admits to it. The parent doesn’t have to do anything.
That’s psychology. No waterboarding needed. Just good ol’ fashioned conning.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:36 am
@Jeremiah
Yes. Yes I have. Obviously, being the good ol’ boy jock, you never got into trouble in high school, being captain of the football team and all.
Well, I was the bad girl. I know what it feels like to have the “choice” of giving into the authority and ratting on your friends, being excluded and shamed, or standing up for myself while at the same time being punished with the threat of not graduating.
It’s not fun. But the stupid guidance counselors know how to make you talk.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:35 am
Some people can’t be tricked into believing there is a danger until the danger actually comes.
I can say I’m going to fart in your mouth all I want, but until you’re in the position for it to happen you won’t believe me. Even then, some people might need me to actually do it so they’ll know I’m serious.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:34 am
Me being bored is why I’m posting here. It was in response to Collission’s “irony” comment.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:33 am
*customize interrogation
May 28th, 2009 at 10:33 am
Anonymouse-
I have to say that your view is almost… offensive. I mean, you’re basically saying that these people are ignorant and we can TRICK them into giving up valuable information that will endanger their brothers. I’d like to think they’re a little smarter than kids.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:33 am
You trick someone into believing there is, duh.
I noticed that you said you were bored, yet you still came back. You can’t help but respond to all of my posts. You’ve got a compulsive need. That’s why you’re such a good lol-cow.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:33 am
@ anonymouse. if you have to customize torture to each individual… maybe some need to be water boarded.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:29 am
Have you been interrogated, Anonymouse?
Also, you seem to not know what I’m talking about when I said, “all you have to do is not say anything.” That’s how to deal with YOUR view of interrogation without such tools as waterboarding.
You basically said you can trick someone into giving up information with threats, but no real actions. I said, “All you have to do is not talk” and not believe the threats. Then what? How are you going to trick someone into talking when there is no perceivable threat of danger?
May 28th, 2009 at 10:28 am
You have to consider many things when interrogating someone. It has to be customized to each person. Like, using a polygraph machine for example. People call it a “lie detector” even though it’s technically not. But, because people assume that the machine is a magic psychic thing that can see into your soul, they’re more likely to tell the truth. Even if the interrogator is just reading body language rather than the machine to tell if the person is lying, the person will get scared. That’s how psychology works. Used to your advantage, you’d be amazed at what you can do. That’s also how cons work.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:27 am
@ Ro:
Death itself, huh? Word to that, death is just as important as life.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:27 am
Good one Jeremiah. Great article.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:26 am
Meh.. I’m bored… and I’m not trying to keep something from you.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:24 am
“It’s not as hard as you think”
You’ve never been interrogated, have you? Until you have, then you can tell me that all you have to do is say nothing.
It’s a catch 22: if you say anything, you’ll be disowned by your countrymen, be seen as a disgrace, and not go to heaven. If you say nothing, you’ll get tortured. And even if you cooperate, you’re still stuck in prison. The best way to learn about your enemy is to get inside their heads. Once you do that, then you’ll understand what to do. Sun Tzu figured this out centuries ago.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:23 am
Anonymouse-
Most people that are battle hardened need a little more than the threat of something happening to spill their guts.
Surely you’ve heard that, “talk is cheap” right?
May 28th, 2009 at 10:23 am
Jeremiah: “All you have to do is not say anything. It’s not as hard as you think.”
Irony…detector…not…keeping up… the numbers… off the chart…
May 28th, 2009 at 10:21 am
@funnyman
Strawmen, ahoy!
We’re talking about the difference between law and religion. Our law says that anything specifically designed to cause pain is torture. Their religion says that they should die before betrayal.
This is where criminology and criminal psychology come into play. Use things against them. Tell them things they don’t want to hear.
Look at 1984: Even Big Brother didn’t bother to use torture. All that Miniluv had to do was exploit Winston’s fear of rats, not by sicking them on him or anything like that, but by telling him that they could. The mind is a more powerful tool than you think. Anyone who’s taken a psychology or criminology course can tell you that.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:20 am
Ro’s just jealous.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:19 am
Heh, you americans sure are funny.
Keep torturing people while most of you are against it.
Its not like the world started watching the atrocities you do to people yesterday, pretty much everybody will continue hating you for what you did even if you stop doing it.
Torture, injustified wars, nuclear attacks, the list wont get any shorter even if you learn to respect the rights that are inherent to every human, so why bother? Everybody thinks you are the death itself anyway.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:18 am
All you have to do is not say anything. It’s not as hard as you think.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:16 am
That’s where social engineering comes in. Unless they’ve been trained otherwise, social engineering can make anyone say anything. This is how trolls get passwords from people to login to their accounts and fuck shit up.
Look it up. Detectives use it all the time to get information. It’s simple psychology.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:15 am
It depends on the amount of time.
I was an EMT, I know a little bit about drowning and it’s effects.
There’s a reason why we had physicians monitoring the men who were being interrogated.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:15 am
well how about this. the people at gitmo strongly believed that water boarding is not torture and they strongly believed it needed to be done to get the info their captive was hiding because he strongly believed he had too hide it.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:14 am
@Anonymouse
So how do you propose you get information from someone who’s willing to die before they talk?
May 28th, 2009 at 10:13 am
@Jeremiah
Any lifeguard can tell you oxygen deprivation and build-up of carbon dioxide causes long term brain damage.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:13 am
“There are much more simpler and more effective ways of interrogation and getting information than torture.”
Right. Well, since your side uses “24″ to mock our views, I’ll bring up comic books to mock yours.
Guess what? Most people aren’t dumb enough to be tricked into saying something they shouldn’t say ala Mr. Mxzyptlk.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:12 am
@Jeremiah
I can answer that easily: his religion. He was so fiercely jingoistic, that he believed if he withheld information, that he would be blessed as a martyr. To them, this is more important than torture. In the military, people are trained to deal with torture and to withhold information no matter what. He chose to withhold information because he would rather die than betray his countrymen and felt it was his religious duty to do so. He had no choice because of his religion and the fact that he was being held in a high security prison didn’t help much either.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:09 am
Sifanele-
No one is saying it’s not uncomfortable or even painful. The fact is it does no long term damage. The only thing I think it does that could be “long term” is shame them when they find out that they gave up their buddies when they weren’t ever in any real danger.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:08 am
@elenafis
The whole point is to be BETTER than them. Remember what your mom told you as a kid: if everyone was jumping off of a cliff, would you go too?
There are much more simpler and more effective ways of interrogation and getting information than torture. Like social engineering. Psychology is the most effective tool against someone. And I don’t mean psychological torture. I mean tricking someone into telling you vital information, say, through an informant. I think someone who goes about getting info pulling MacGyvers would be much more praised than someone who resorted to barbaric and bullying tactics.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:07 am
Ah, thanks for bringing up “choice.”
Khalid had the choice of telling them what he knew. Had he done that instead of asking for his lawyer, then he could have avoided all of that.
Also, who was being sodomized day after day? Didn’t read that in the memos.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:06 am
“Waterboarding is not torture”
Experience this first THEN say it is not torture!
May 28th, 2009 at 10:05 am
I am.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:05 am
i personally dont feel that water boarding is torture because there is no danger in it. it might suck ass to have it done to you, but i can say the same to wedgies as a kid. it sucked, but it wasnt torture.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:04 am
Solitary confinement is a form of “mental torture” if we’re going to use such a loose definition.
You guys against putting dangerous criminals in rooms that are completely shut off from other people?
May 28th, 2009 at 10:03 am
Running isn’t torture. You also aren’t being held prisoner. You could have just run off of the field back home, if you wanted to. You also had a choice on whether you wanted to be on a track team or not. Again, working hard being torture is just a metaphor. You’re not being chained to the wall and sodomized day after day.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:03 am
First of all, terrorists targeted USA long before there was any “War on terror” whatsoever (remember the American Embassy Bombings of Africa in 1998, 1st World trade center attack in 1993, etc). This inspite of the fact that US has infact helped these people in combating the threats in Afghanistan (against the erstwhile USSR), Kuwait (against Iraq),etc & armed countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE, Qatar, etc to protect them against their rogue countries.
The reasons for offending these terrorists are as insignificant as US having military bases in West Asian countries. Apparently, the presence of these bases is offending & polluting their holy lands (Yes! non-muslims are considered as filth there!), even though their governments needed the support of USA to combat the threat of the Shiite Iran.
And all those people whining about US stooping to the level of those countries, you don’t know shit about them. If waterboarding is considered as “torture” (sic!), then you should know what intelligence agencies of other countries do to their prisoners!! And they don’t go about discussing these “torture” methods in public (except for posting those beheading videos though, to taunt the families of their victims) or politicize the issue only to impress some moonbats. And here we are publicly discussing what our intelligence agencies are doing to keep us safe.(I guess this will never happen in any other country!). Yes, this unnecessary discussion might propel some idiots to carry out more terrorist attacks. These left wing nuts are so retarded to think that we can remain safe without using even the relatively mild interrogation techniques like “waterboarding”.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:02 am
Obuma as Batman? In his land of Kenya, perhaps. Two-Face is more like it, although at least Two-Face is tough and intelligent, unlike that cretinous wimp Mista Teleprompter, with his “Austrian language”.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:01 am
well in the case of the law, it says that the pain and suffering must be at a severe level. there’s no way to measure that though. Your claim that by law waterboarding isn’t torture, but it is instead intense interrogation, might fit and be true, but I’m not arguing that. The law is flawed, who’s the say what is a severe level?
May 28th, 2009 at 10:00 am
You know, when its done up like this I can almost tolerate the whole bunch of scoundrels.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:59 am
@CavalierX
Strawman, red herring… man, you’re on a roll today?
When you say a job you hate is torture, that’s a metaphor. Of course it’s not the equivalent of sticking a coke bottle up your ass.
The feeling of drowning is painful. I know from personal experience. I know the fear you get from feeling your lungs fill with water and when your heart can’t pump oxygen. I know what it feels like to have carbon dioxide fill up in your blood. That’s what’s being done with waterboarding, and that’s torture. Any near-drowning victim can tell you that.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:58 am
@ privatepyle:
Huffin´ and puffin´ over nuffin´ much (or in this case, trolling the fuck out of the comments section of a political satire) is all part of the great, friendly circle jerk that is cracked.com. Just sit back and let it wash over you. See how it´s like. Then have a beer or twenty to wash off the flavor.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:58 am
So does that mean that athletes are tortured by their coaches when they have to run wind sprints? I know my lungs hurt when I had to do that. I guess I missed an opportunity for a lawsuit.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:55 am
Simulating drowning means you still feel the effects of drowning. You feel your lungs filling with water, your brain deprived of oxygen, and your heart losing blood volume. That causes pain. Torture causes pain. Waterboarding is torture.
Again, if you want to prove otherwise, go do it yourself and post a video. I’ll wait.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:54 am
@Anonymous
Your lungs don’t fill with water when you’re waterboarded. See, lungs filling with water is ACTUAL drowning. As you said, waterboarding is SIMULATING drowning.
Reality =/= simulation. Otherwise I’d have a big mansion, only work a few hours a day and speak in jumbled, indecipherable mumbles.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:54 am
While I sort of find this funny, I agree with “Person”.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:54 am
Waterboarding’s whole purpose is to cause pain. The only way you wouldn’t think it’s torture if you were into autoasphyxiation. So now we know why you’re so stupid: there isn’t enough oxygen getting to your brain.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:53 am
“The point of waterboarding is to simulate drowning. Haven’t you ever heard anyone say drowning is the worst way to go? If drowning isn’t torture, then why doesn’t everyone do fill their lungs with water?”
Go check the dictionary and look up the word “SIMULATE.” Then crawl back under your rock and contemplate your stupidity.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:52 am
“the water didn’t enter his cavities but he still freaks after a couple seconds and states that it is definitely torture”
So fucking what? I once had a job I hated, and it got me to the point where I freaked out and yelled “This is torture!” But that doesn’t actually make it torture under the law, now does it? Your argument is devoid of logic and pointless.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:51 am
I’m not red-faced and puffy. I just like spirited debate and I’m honestly shocked at how civil it’s been for the most part.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:51 am
@CavalierX
The point of waterboarding is to simulate drowning. Haven’t you ever heard anyone say drowning is the worst way to go? If drowning isn’t torture, then why doesn’t everyone do fill their lungs with water?
You sir, are retarded.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:49 am
“your bashing people for having no proof, but what fucking proof do you have that waterboarding or “american waterboarding” as you put it, isnt torture”
The law. Remember how the entire Liberal establishment freaked out, claiming that Alberto Gonzales was “condoning” torture after being asked to come up with a legal definition specifically so that we could interrogate WITHOUT committing torture? Here you go:
“We conclude below that Section 2340A proscribes acts inflicting, and that are specifically intended to inflict, severe pain or suffering, whether mental or physical. Those acts must be of an extreme nature to rise to the level of torture within the meaning of Section 2340A and the Convention. We further conclude that certain acts may be cruel, inhuman, or degrading, but still not produce pain and suffering of the requisite intensity to fall within Section 2340A’s proscription against torture.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/documents/dojinterrogationmemo20020801.pdf
May 28th, 2009 at 9:48 am
I guess all I’m sayin’ is: we’re at cracked.com, people!
To come HERE to get all red-faced and puffy…well, all red-faced and puffy in the bad way…seems like it’s not at all in the spirit of the thing.
For instance, why the hell am I lurking around the Comments Board to the Batman Torture article? That seems really, really weak. The Founding Farters of Cracked Magazine would be pissed. But not overtly, since I’d just run to Mad.
But still! This is madness!
May 28th, 2009 at 9:48 am
We do know what “American waterboarding” was. It was in the part of the memo that wasn’t redacted.
People like to bring up the Japanese and how they were punished as war criminals. Well, they actually killed people doing it, used salt water, and had no real regulations around it at all. Read the un-redacted parts of the memos and you should see that the way it was done, it was far from being truly threatening.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:47 am
Well, Seanbaby is 0/9. I’m just gonna skip everything he writes from now on.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:45 am
But mental torture is the best kind!
May 28th, 2009 at 9:45 am
@smitty-
You nailed it when you said it’s a “miserable experience.” I don’t think anyone here says it’s fun or inconsequential to be waterboarded. But it’s definitely not shocking the piss out of you, breaking your arms, pulling out your nails, etc.
You know what else is a miserable experience for alot of people? Public speaking.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:44 am
“now I’m not saying that video proves that waterboarding is in fact torture, but an actual demonstration of waterboarding followed by a conservative guy admitting fully that it is torture after experiencing it, does argue against your claim”
I’m sorry, but one person’s subjective feeling has nothing at all to do with the legal definition of torture, which waterboarding does not meet. I could say that reading all these idiots ranting about torture is torture; does that mean Cracked is guilty of torture just because I say so? Your “argument” is a fail.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:44 am
and again, @ CavalierX’s most recent comment….your bashing people for having no proof, but what fucking proof do you have that waterboarding or “american waterboarding” as you put it, isnt torture…. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUkj9pjx3H0 the water didn’t enter his cavities but he still freaks after a couple seconds and states that it is definitely torture.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:40 am
@ CavalierX
“waterboarding, as performed at Gitmo, is not torture.” and what proof do you have for this claim? Have you tried it or are you just assuming its like taking a shower? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUkj9pjx3H0 now I’m not saying that video proves that waterboarding is in fact torture, but an actual demonstration of waterboarding followed by a conservative guy admitting fully that it is torture after experiencing it, does argue against your claim….”If anyone has such a list of people who became terrorists because of wet faces, please post it.” again, its not just a wet face CavalierX, try it yourself, please, and then try to say its not a miserable experience.
@ Jules
“It’s not an american right not to be tortured, it’s a human one.” couldn’t agree more, I was going to say the exact same thing. It’s not about them being ‘jealous of our freedom’ and hating us because if they can’t be free then no one can. thats just stupid, they hate how our society, in their eyes, has no morals. teens getting knocked up, and wearing skirts so short you can see their underwear. Their treatment of women is wrong in our eyes and our treatment of women is wrong in their eyes.
anyways, this is a comedy website and that article was very funny, good job. the comment section of a comedy article isn’t really the right place for a political debate, but i had to just throw my 2 cents in the ever growing pot.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:39 am
@privatepyle-
I agree! We could start a petition and I’ll give it to my wife tonight!
May 28th, 2009 at 9:37 am
“There are certainly a lot of people who are terrorists now who were just normal folks working a job before the Americans came”
Okay, well let’s have the list then. … Oh, a definitive statement made without any evidence to back it up? What a surprise.
“And it’s not unreasonable to assume the torture by soldiers is used as a recruiting-tool for terrorists.”
Is is when our soldiers do not torture. Please stop mindlessly parroting al-Qaeda propoganda.
“It’s very easy to make the americans seem evil when you actually got proof of it.”
Well, let me follow your link to said proof… what? No evidence again? I should stop pretending to be surprised by your lack of supporting evidence. The problem with everything you’ve said so far is that we are not torturing anyone at Gitmo. If we were, I’d be against it. But we’re not.
“Also, please do not trivialize waterboarding by claiming it’s “just water being poured onto someones face”. That’s just stupid and shows you have never seen anyone get waterboarded.”
I’ll trivialise anything I want, particularly since that’s exactly what happens. In American waterboarding, the water does not enter the nasal or oral cavities. The water is poured over the face, and the subject feels as though he’s drowning, but there is no possibility of that happening unless Liberals drown him with their tears.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:37 am
lol…. dick cheney as the penguin. HE SHOULD BE IN THE NEXT BATMAN MOVIE AS PENGUIN!!!
May 28th, 2009 at 9:37 am
Seriously. I’ll kick in, like, ten bucks.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:35 am
@Irishladdie727-
“This is an EXTREMELY backwards argument. The reason torture is so inhumane is not just because you’re treating human being like garbage, but because no matter how precise you are, you are going to torture some innocent people who really don’t have the information you want. So because some Muslims are terrorists, torture’s justified? That’s like saying black criminals justify the KKK!”
If that’s what was going on, then you would have a case. The facts are, we don’t waterboard willy-nilly or because we feel like it. We do it when we know someone has information we need. Three people were waterboarded. Why does Obama not release the information we got from them? Could it be that, for all the flowery rhetoric, we actually attained actionable intelligence from them that makes his arguments moot? We may never know because the guy touting “transparency” thinks it’s best to remain opaque on this one.
“Also, do you think that everyone of these people is crazy? Lunatics can’t organize themselves as well as the “turrorists” all have. They actually believe they are combating a threatening and powerful evil. They are extremely misinformed, and their leaders have hidden agendas that honestly have nothing to do with America, but when our government commits ACTUAL crimes, we’re confirming everything that they’ve been told, we’re just feeding the flames. Whether or not you think torture is justified, it’s against international law, and the Bush administration gave our country a horrible reputation with countries who aren’t trying to destroy us too. And as Batman Obama stated, situations where torturing one guy for a code to a bomb that will DESTROY AMERICA!!! don’t actually happen. 24 is a great show, but don’t think anything that takes place on it, or other similar media is even slightly based in reality. We torture to get names of other people to torture. That’s all we ever accomplished with this, and it’s all we ever will accomplish if we continue. If somebody has a bomb or something that will kill thousands of people, an underling stupid enough to get captured wouldn’t know a damn thing about it.”
Your representation of my argument is a fallacious strawman. I don’t watch 24. Never have. It’s a gimmick that will go away with the many others that have come and gone.
We also didn’t waterboard “underlings.” We waterboarded guys who were in the know and got actionable intelligence out of it. That’s why Obama REDACTED over 50% of the memos.
Whatever reasons anyone may have for joining terrorist groups DOES NOT JUSTIFY JOINING THEM. Nazi’s thought they were doing good too.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:28 am
Would somebody be willing to get Jeremiah laid?
;^}
May 28th, 2009 at 9:25 am
“Cops aren’t doing it right now, but when torture is justified as interrogation(which is what cops do) whats going to stop them when they are working a case they are very passionate about? Thanks to the Patriot Act, I’ve learned our rights aren’t invulnerable. That, and the fact that millions of people (including American citizens, some of which have just stated they disagree with the War in Iraq) are on the Terrorist Watch List, just makes it seem a little TOO possible to me.”
Police interrogation is on video.
“Yes, I am well aware of this. This one is my fault for not fully elaborating my point. You have a middle eastern man who was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and is now being tortured because we think he’s a terrorist. You have the people who saw him being taken, people who know it was Americans who took him. They see what is going on around them, and one way or another they get news of what’s going on elsewhere. They are just normal people who stayed away from the extremists, but now they are beginning to think they have the right idea.
If even one person decides to become an Insurgent/Terrorist/Enemy/whatever you wish to call it because of our actions, then yes, we do create terrorism, against ourselves(although Terrorism isn’t really the right word for it). Even you admit, we already indirectly create terrorism against ourselves by being a free nation. Don’t take that the wrong way either, I say fuck ‘em for that one, but it is basically true when you think about it.”
True, but not justified.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:23 am
Speaking of mental torture, of course it is.
You can spike someone with LSD, causing zero physical harm, but still completely fuck up his mental health.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:22 am
“And no, capturing and imprisoning someone is not a combat situation. That’s why torture is so horrible, you’re not defending yourself or attacking someone to help others, you’re willfully and without needing to hurting a human being.”
Where were they captured and by whom? If it’s in a combat situation, then that’s what it is. Most of the people at Gitmo were captured by the military.
“It would be foolish to ignore the fact that many new terrorists join because of things like this, just as it would be foolish to ignore many new KKK members join when they see more immigration and more ethnic criminals.
You seem to believe ‘terrorists’ are all two-dimensional caricactures who all hate the US on the same level and don’t have any real reasons for joining. That’s just plain not true.”
You just said that some terrorists are justified in joining their respective terror groups. I disagree.
The fact is that there is nothing justifiable behind what they do. I don’t like the way China treats it’s people. I could find many examples of “human rights” violations. Does that give me the right to start bombing anything related to the Chinese?
May 28th, 2009 at 9:19 am
~~I would really appreciate a list of the terrorists who were just sitting around, quietly herding their goats or whatever, and suddenly said “Those damn Americans! They actually put water on some guy’s face! I’m gonna go blow myself up!” If anyone has such a list of people who became terrorists because of wet faces, please post it.~~
There are certainly a lot of people who are terrorists now who were just normal folks working a job before the Americans came. And it’s not unreasonable to assume the torture by soldiers is used as a recruiting-tool for terrorists. It’s very easy to make the americans seem evil when you actually got proof of it.
Also, please do not trivialize waterboarding by claiming it’s “just water being poured onto someones face”. That’s just stupid and shows you have never seen anyone get waterboarded.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:17 am
Excellent. And spotting retarded and/or republican “We Have A Right To Defend Ourselves” rants in the comments section more than doubles the fun. Well played, Sir, well played.
@ Than687: Making your enemies angry is a good policy, right up until the point where EVERYONE is your enemy. Good luck taking on the whole wide world, country that got its ass kicked by just one tiny little Vietnam.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:11 am
A philosopher once said “When hunting monsters, be careful that you do not become one yourself.”
America lost a lot of legitimacy and international support in its hypocritical usage of torture. For years America, and many american people have touted themselves as been a moral police force of the world. From the outside looking in, other nations have witnessed nothing more than a slow breakdown to barbarism in the united states.
Obama is the greatest hope the US has of revitalising the moral self-image of your nation.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:10 am
Where does the killing of 3 teenagers fit into all of this? Is it OK to have snipers kill some poor misguided Somali youths just because a White American was being detained? Don’t claim they had to do it to save his life. It was the Navy that kept them from going back to shore, and the evil capitalist shipping company could always have paid reparations to the boys. Is that really “due process”?
How about firebombing Dresden in WWII? How about Hiroshama and Nagasaki?
The question is only whether this is a police investigation or a real war where the same rules don’t apply.
If an opposing army is completely made up of conscripts fighting against their will, the U.S. could still justifiably kill them, not read them their Miranda rights and try to take them into custody.
For a party of “nuance”, the Left doesn’t seem to find much distintion between police and miltary and the roles they serve.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:08 am
I side with Drowning Pool because they had that song once.
ONE! NOTHING WRONG WITH ME!
May 28th, 2009 at 9:06 am
Loved the comic. The “electric dick clamp workers” and “school that teaches puppies to giggle” lines are to be savored.
As far as the debate is concerned, I’m pretty ambivalent. (Which is a polite way of saying I don’t give a crap.) We say we’re above torture, but c’mon. It’s a nice thing for the pamphlets, I suppose. “So You’ve Bought Into a Supremacy Doctrine.”
We are arguably leaders in many things. But then again, we’ve aimed nukes at everybody and his effin’ brother for goin’ on sixty years. If anybody tries to one-up us, we find a way to remind them that we’re also leaders in ripping off heads and dumping down necks.
Is it me, or does it seem silly to sweat waterboarding even as we’re developing weapons to incinerate whole cities from space?
May 28th, 2009 at 9:00 am
that was hilarious. anti-torture humor = win.
May 28th, 2009 at 8:57 am
“Al Gore says:
‘Make fun of Cheney all you want, how many of you are rich former vice presidents who get pussy from their wife?’
I am.”
I’m done now, after flipping through and seeing that, I don’t have it in me to argue anymore, lol!
May 28th, 2009 at 8:57 am
Well that was funny if you agree with the comic..Im guessing?
Otherwise…it just seemed like a one sided propaganda piece where one side gets their point out and puts outrageous arguments into the mouths of the opposition and voiced in the most absurd way possible.
It’s probably best to avoid politics. It never ends well.
May 28th, 2009 at 8:56 am
@ Jeremiah
“We create terrorism by doing shit like this”???? Then how do you explain 9/11 or the many other attacks that preceded it? That happened BEFORE we started “doing shit like this.” That argument falls flat on it’s face. That’s like saying black criminals justify the KKK. Black people didn’t have to do anything for the KKK to hate them, and the US didn’t have to do anything for terrorists to hate them. They hate them because of who they are, what they stand for, not for what they actually do.”
This is an EXTREMELY backwards argument. The reason torture is so inhumane is not just because you’re treating human being like garbage, but because no matter how precise you are, you are going to torture some innocent people who really don’t have the information you want. So because some Muslims are terrorists, torture’s justified? That’s like saying black criminals justify the KKK!
Also, do you think that everyone of these people is crazy? Lunatics can’t organize themselves as well as the “turrorists” all have. They actually believe they are combating a threatening and powerful evil. They are extremely misinformed, and their leaders have hidden agendas that honestly have nothing to do with America, but when our government commits ACTUAL crimes, we’re confirming everything that they’ve been told, we’re just feeding the flames. Whether or not you think torture is justified, it’s against international law, and the Bush administration gave our country a horrible reputation with countries who aren’t trying to destroy us too. And as Batman Obama stated, situations where torturing one guy for a code to a bomb that will DESTROY AMERICA!!! don’t actually happen. 24 is a great show, but don’t think anything that takes place on it, or other similar media is even slightly based in reality. We torture to get names of other people to torture. That’s all we ever accomplished with this, and it’s all we ever will accomplish if we continue. If somebody has a bomb or something that will kill thousands of people, an underling stupid enough to get captured wouldn’t know a damn thing about it.
@ Slowmotion
“This sucks. Apparently, water boarding one man isn’t worth the lives of thousands. Water boarding one to save one innocent life is justified. Make fun of Cheney all you want, how many of you are rich former vice presidents who get pussy from their wife?”
I’m not, but 42 other people in history can certainly claim this. You don’t have to be a wife fucking ex vice president to be worth anything in this world, much less accomplish great things for your country and for the world. People make fun of Cheney because he used to scare the shit out of us as this hidden, powerful figure and now that he is out in the open, we can plainly see that he’s just another old man trying to cover his own ass and redirect all blame, swimming closer and closer to the island of pathetic, like Nixon before him. Also, he shot his friend in the face. That was funny too.
Honestly though, there are much better places to debate these things than a comedy website. Whether or not you feel sufficiently refuted, take this shit elsewhere. If you are that offended by people dissing Bush and his cronies, you really should not be on this website anyways. Dick (Cheney) jokes are almost as popular as traditional dick jokes around here.
May 28th, 2009 at 8:54 am
“Cops won’t do it to American citizens. We have rights. The rules change in combat situations. Terrorism is not a law enforcement matter. It’s entered the realm of warfare.”
Cops aren’t doing it right now, but when torture is justified as interrogation(which is what cops do) whats going to stop them when they are working a case they are very passionate about? Thanks to the Patriot Act, I’ve learned our rights aren’t invulnerable. That, and the fact that millions of people (including American citizens, some of which have just stated they disagree with the War in Iraq) are on the Terrorist Watch List, just makes it seem a little TOO possible to me.
“Then how do you explain 9/11 or the many other attacks that preceded it? That happened BEFORE we started “doing shit like this.”
Yes, I am well aware of this. This one is my fault for not fully elaborating my point. You have a middle eastern man who was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and is now being tortured because we think he’s a terrorist. You have the people who saw him being taken, people who know it was Americans who took him. They see what is going on around them, and one way or another they get news of what’s going on elsewhere. They are just normal people who stayed away from the extremists, but now they are beginning to think they have the right idea.
If even one person decides to become an Insurgent/Terrorist/Enemy/whatever you wish to call it because of our actions, then yes, we do create terrorism, against ourselves(although Terrorism isn’t really the right word for it). Even you admit, we already indirectly create terrorism against ourselves by being a free nation. Don’t take that the wrong way either, I say fuck ‘em for that one, but it is basically true when you think about it.
May 28th, 2009 at 8:52 am
that was awesome. Although Carlos Mencia is a congenital retard not a congenital retarded
May 28th, 2009 at 8:51 am
I would really appreciate a list of the terrorists who were just sitting around, quietly herding their goats or whatever, and suddenly said “Those damn Americans! They actually put water on some guy’s face! I’m gonna go blow myself up!” If anyone has such a list of people who became terrorists because of wet faces, please post it.
May 28th, 2009 at 8:47 am
“It would be foolish to ignore the fact that many new terrorists join because of things like this”
It would be more foolish to ignore the fact that many new terrorists join because they see us weeping and wringing our hands over a little thing like causing discomfort to our enemies and come to the inescapable conclusion that bin Laden was right; that we are too weak to defend ourselves against them. THAT’S why they join.
May 28th, 2009 at 8:46 am
All I want to know is what terrorists have people been talking to that said they joined because of us torturing? Where are you getting this information, because all of the terrorists I’ve been talking to said that they already hated our guts before that.
May 28th, 2009 at 8:42 am
That was an exceptional rundown of the torture debate. I am very impressed.
May 28th, 2009 at 8:41 am
“Cops won’t do it to American citizens. We have rights. The rules change in combat situations. Terrorism is not a law enforcement matter. It’s entered the realm of warfare.”
It’s not an american right not to be tortured, it’s a human one.
And no, capturing and imprisoning someone is not a combat situation. That’s why torture is so horrible, you’re not defending yourself or attacking someone to help others, you’re willfully and without needing to hurting a human being.
~~“We create terrorism by doing shit like this”???? Then how do you explain 9/11 or the many other attacks that preceded it? That happened BEFORE we started “doing shit like this.” That argument falls flat on it’s face. That’s like saying black criminals justify the KKK. Black people didn’t have to do anything for the KKK to hate them, and the US didn’t have to do anything for terrorists to hate them. They hate them because of who they are, what they stand for, not for what they actually do.~~~
It would be foolish to ignore the fact that many new terrorists join because of things like this, just as it would be foolish to ignore many new KKK members join when they see more immigration and more ethnic criminals.
You seem to believe ‘terrorists’ are all two-dimensional caricactures who all hate the US on the same level and don’t have any real reasons for joining. That’s just plain not true.
May 28th, 2009 at 8:41 am
Stop trying to do political comedy.
You are uninformed and un-funny as well.
May 28th, 2009 at 8:35 am
It is just me or did people notice that in “24″ the terrorist attacks gets worse and worse? man CTU must be crappiest counter terrorist unit in the world.
May 28th, 2009 at 8:34 am
This article would be kind of funny if it weren’t for the fact that waterboarding, as performed at Gitmo, is not torture. No amount of screaming “but it’s torture!” will magically turn it into torture. And pretending that it’s done for the sake of emotion is just ridiculous. It’s those who cry for the comfort of the most evil scumbags on Earth that are appealing to emotion. Waterboarding was performed as a last resort on those few known terrorists with whom all other methods of obtaining information failed, and was specifically done so as not to be torture. The only funny thing is how, if those people hadn’t been interrogated and more terrorist attacks had taken place, the same people who are wringing their hands over the “human rights” of terrorists would be screaming “Why didn’t you do something to prevent this?”
May 28th, 2009 at 8:30 am
“Make fun of Cheney all you want, how many of you are rich former vice presidents who get pussy from their wife?”
I am.
May 28th, 2009 at 8:30 am
Damn, I just realized I didn’t even comment on the article…
It was well written with a good lay-out, so it was easy to read. There were A LOT of funny quotes to be found here, like the part about the guy shitting a trophy. And WARK!
I am highly against torture (obviously), but I have to agree with some others that it seems too easy when only one side of the argument presents their case in a batshit-insane way. It’s still funny anyway, most likely just because it wasn’t the side I’m on that was portrayed as utterly crazy.
May 28th, 2009 at 8:28 am
The raping people to get a cat out of a tree scenario was comic gold.
May 28th, 2009 at 8:27 am
Yes indeed, torturing people will make our enemies ANGRY at us. God forbid they should get ANGRY! They might drive a plane into one of our most recognizable buildings or something!
May 28th, 2009 at 8:26 am
“Well, according to recent history, burning yourself on a hot cup of coffee like a fucking retard, HUMILIATING yourself in public is worth several million from lawsuits.”
The jury punished McDonalds for basically not giving a fuck. That seemed more about bad customer service than the “victim” being humiliated.
“As long as we continue to use these methods, we are slowly but surely sinking further down to their level. We’re not there yet, but if we let this go, what’s next? And if we let THAT go, what comes after that? Then, what if cops start doing it to people who they only SUSPECT of a crime, with no evidence to really back it up?”
Cops won’t do it to American citizens. We have rights. The rules change in combat situations. Terrorism is not a law enforcement matter. It’s entered the realm of warfare.
“Doing these things isn’t going to protect us, its only going to piss people off and put us even MORE in danger. We create terrorism by doing shit like this. Even if its not another terrorist attack, what if another nation decides we’ve become the modern-day equivalent of Nazi Germany?”
“We create terrorism by doing shit like this”???? Then how do you explain 9/11 or the many other attacks that preceded it? That happened BEFORE we started “doing shit like this.” That argument falls flat on it’s face. That’s like saying black criminals justify the KKK. Black people didn’t have to do anything for the KKK to hate them, and the US didn’t have to do anything for terrorists to hate them. They hate them because of who they are, what they stand for, not for what they actually do.
May 28th, 2009 at 8:24 am
This sucks. Apparently, water boarding one man isn’t worth the lives of thousands. Water boarding one to save one innocent life is justified. Make fun of Cheney all you want, how many of you are rich former vice presidents who get pussy from their wife?
May 28th, 2009 at 8:18 am
That was ridiculously funny. All I’m gonna say.
May 28th, 2009 at 8:17 am
“We don’t torture, we humiliate. Only in this day and age would people consider humiliation to be on par with, “dick electrocution.” Also, until we start beheading terrorists and broadcasting it to the world, we haven’t “sunk to their level.””
Well, according to recent history, burning yourself on a hot cup of coffee like a fucking retard, HUMILIATING yourself in public is worth several million from lawsuits.
As long as we continue to use these methods, we are slowly but surely sinking further down to their level. We’re not there yet, but if we let this go, what’s next? And if we let THAT go, what comes after that? Then, what if cops start doing it to people who they only SUSPECT of a crime, with no evidence to really back it up?
Doing these things isn’t going to protect us, its only going to piss people off and put us even MORE in danger. We create terrorism by doing shit like this. Even if its not another terrorist attack, what if another nation decides we’ve become the modern-day equivalent of Nazi Germany?
May 28th, 2009 at 8:15 am
@Stoneglad-
No, it’s funny to me that someone who hates America is asking to be given the rights and priviledges of an American citizen. Kind of ironic if you ask me.
May 28th, 2009 at 8:11 am
Oh damn - frosting and cheese. I LOL’d.
May 28th, 2009 at 8:06 am
@Jeremiah
It’s funny to you that someone accused of a crime wanted to speak to their lawyer? Which part of the world are you from?
May 28th, 2009 at 8:05 am
“Wait, do people actually think it was the Bush administration’s fault for not fixing communication problems…”
Oh, you mean like how people blame Obama for the current state of the economy, when all this shit started happening years ago?
Look, its simple. If we want to be able to honestly say “America, FUCK YEA!” then we can’t sink to the level of torture for any reason. I’ve heard many people make the argument, “Did you forget the American soldiers being beheaded on TV?”to which I reply “No, but are we a civilized nation that prides itself on being better than everyone else, or are we just a group of blood-thirsty barbarians who are blinded by religion and revenge?”
Besides, it wasn’t confessions from a tortured prisoner that found Saddam Hussein, is was the soldiers on the ground that did. Hell, I bet we went to Iraq based on a “confession” that Saddam Hussein was a part of it. The torture methods used by us were the same methods used on us by North Korea in Vietnam. Funny thing about that? The methods are known mostly for producing FALSE CONFESSIONS. And the superiors who ordered them to be used on “terrorists” (I’m sure some actually were, some weren’t) knew they were used to produce FALSE CONFESSIONS.
Take a child who refuses to clean his room. His mother constantly says “You live in my house! I buy you toys, feed you, and clothe you. You better clean your room now!” on a daily basis, while repeatedly poking him hard in the chest. Eventually the kid is going to take a shortcut he knows won’t work out well in the long run, but at least its a temporary fix; shove all his trash under the bed, dresser(s), and/or in his closet.
May 28th, 2009 at 8:05 am
I’m warming to Seanbaby, but I would point out that he is somewhat insensitive in some respects. I actually do, in fact, advocate torture as a way of saying hello, and would like some recognition, thank you so much.
May 28th, 2009 at 8:04 am
So… do you guys support torturing our own troops? Because, if waterboarding is torture, then we’re doing it to our own people under the guise of “training.” What mental problems do they get from it? The only mental problems a terrorist would have would be shame and guilt after he finds out he wasn’t ever in any danger but he spilled his guts anyway.
Consider Khalid- he thought for some reason he would be treated like an American citizen after his capture. Dude said he wouldn’t talk and demanded to speak to his lawyer. That’s funny to me.
We don’t torture, we humiliate. Only in this day and age would people consider humiliation to be on par with, “dick electrocution.” Also, until we start beheading terrorists and broadcasting it to the world, we haven’t “sunk to their level.”
May 28th, 2009 at 7:57 am
Bravo!
May 28th, 2009 at 7:53 am
This was cool, also i was glad some one else had noticed the relationship between americas casual attitude to torture and tv show likes 24 that glorify ”the end justify the means” type dipshitology.
May 28th, 2009 at 7:48 am
… the I fucked it. Oh yeah! http://neilsnotes.com/index.php?page=13&catid=17&sku=ENGL-CD00424
May 28th, 2009 at 7:46 am
Oh Nigger… lighten the fuck up.
May 28th, 2009 at 7:41 am
‘Gimp’ is, as his name suggests, nothing but a little bitch.
aside from that, this article is a lot funnier than i was expecting!
May 28th, 2009 at 7:28 am
“hey that shit blew up when you were in office asshole”
Wait, do people actually think it was the Bush administration’s fault for not fixing communication problems within the intelligence community (problems no one knew existed) within the first year of office?
That’s pretty fucking stupid.
May 28th, 2009 at 7:26 am
you let the nigger be batman? for shame.
May 28th, 2009 at 7:24 am
I think this whole debate is torture, can we move please.
May 28th, 2009 at 7:23 am
Conservative radioperson argues water-boarding is not torture. Volunteered to get waterboarded to prove this.
LET’S SEE WHAT HAPPENS!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUkj9pjx3H0
Yeah man, seems it might actually be torture.
May 28th, 2009 at 7:23 am
yes but can you scare a man out of a tree by raping cats underneath it?
Wes, i think i love you
May 28th, 2009 at 7:11 am
@Humility
You tought the article was biased? HOLY SHIT SERIOUSLY? you think it has anything to do with the fact that is made to entertain and not educate right?
Oh and this little quote is gold:
“Waterboarding is only wrong if it is done without the prisoner’s safety in mind”
Yeah and when I bullied people in school, I only did it if I was sure I wasn’t hurting their feelings.
May 28th, 2009 at 7:05 am
@Humility
Of course it’s torture you mincing simpleton! May I recommend http://www.dictionary.com
May 28th, 2009 at 7:01 am
That picture of Obama and Drowning Pool is a really good Photoshop. I hope. Please tell me that’s not a real pic!
May 28th, 2009 at 7:00 am
Reading Seanbaby is torture. If he is so against it, he should eliminate himself.
May 28th, 2009 at 6:54 am
@Humility
I call it mental torture just because torure is not physicle dose not mean it is not torture
the horror movie comparision is not valid I can leave a horror movie if I want if I want.
I can stick pin in me dose not mean it is legal for pepol to tie me down and stick pins in me (but if you are free next friday…)
May 28th, 2009 at 6:54 am
Spot on, as always. Thanks.
May 28th, 2009 at 6:45 am
“Would you call strapping a bomb to a prisoner’s chest, and telling them they had one minute to answer or die inhumane if the bomb was a dud?”
Fuck yes I’d call that inhumane. Just because you are not actually putting someone in physical danger, you can still mentally harm them. Mental torture is still a form of torture.
Saying that the prisoner’s safety was in mind when they were waterboarded does not undo the fact that they were tortured. You say the article was biased, yet you have an incredibly biased view of what torture is.
May 28th, 2009 at 6:42 am
carlos mencia is not funny. good job.
May 28th, 2009 at 6:37 am
Hahaha!
May 28th, 2009 at 6:34 am
Is it just me or does this article seem biased? Waterboarding is only wrong if it is done without the prisoner’s safety in mind, the prisoners were not hurt and not in danger. They were just terrified beyond what any horror movie can do.
Not inhumane.
Would you call strapping a bomb to a prisoner’s chest, and telling them they had one minute to answer or die inhumane if the bomb was a dud? Of course not.
May 28th, 2009 at 6:29 am
SeanBaby i’m starting to become a fan of your writing! You are by far the greatest addition to the CRACKED family keep the articles coming!
May 28th, 2009 at 6:26 am
yes but can you scare a man out of a tree by raping cats underneath it?
May 28th, 2009 at 6:25 am
“hey that shit blew up when you were in office asshole” LO-FREAKING-L!!
May 28th, 2009 at 6:24 am
Seanbaby, you are a fucking genius.
May 28th, 2009 at 6:21 am
Seanbaby, dude… I’ve been a fan since way back. I mean, I’ve read and re-read most of the articles on your site multiple times. The whole fratboy-meets-nerd thing is hilarious. But this… you’ve blown me away. Keep up the fantastic stream of articles.
May 28th, 2009 at 6:21 am
But… but what he’s doing is stating their position, albeit in an even more roundabout way than usual. He’s not being idiotic, he’s just hiding his meaning.
May 28th, 2009 at 6:20 am
I loved it. I don’t really know what else to say.
I want to have babies with your article.
May 28th, 2009 at 6:18 am
I laughed so hard, i couldn’t see the images on adult Ebay.
May 28th, 2009 at 6:16 am
Sweet Mercy…
I didn’t think much to Seanbaby at first but this one and the MMA article have just been unbelievably funny. I had to stop reading at work because I couldnt stop laughing.
Mate…you are amazing keep going please.
May 28th, 2009 at 6:15 am
“No one believes in torture as a way to say hello”
Nice article. love the quote by carlos mencia
May 28th, 2009 at 6:12 am
“Ugh… Sorry but I hate when an author creates a character, in this case Obamaman, with the intention of pushing a view and then pits that character’s wit against a really retarded, fanatical opponent even if I do agree with their position. It would have been nice to see both sides going at it, humorously of course, but on equal footing. The liberal side making valid points and the conservative side being ape-sh** insane or vice versa is the easy way to do political humor. No offense meant by the way. Just my opinion”
I agree, that’s one big problem I have with every preaching South Park episode, but this is pretty tame in comparison.
May 28th, 2009 at 5:59 am
Best line, “You can certainly get a cat out of a tree by raping people under it until emergency vehicles arrive.”
Now we know.
May 28th, 2009 at 5:56 am
WARK!
Fucking hilarious! FUCK THE REMAINS!!!
May 28th, 2009 at 5:56 am
Ugh… Sorry but I hate when an author creates a character, in this case Obamaman, with the intention of pushing a view and then pits that character’s wit against a really retarded, fanatical opponent even if I do agree with their position. It would have been nice to see both sides going at it, humorously of course, but on equal footing. The liberal side making valid points and the conservative side being ape-sh** insane or vice versa is the easy way to do political humor. No offense meant by the way. Just my opinion.
May 28th, 2009 at 5:52 am
Blackman and Penguin.
May 28th, 2009 at 5:50 am
Honestly, I wasn’t really into Seanbaby at first at all. But with the past few columns, my mind’s been changed. You’re fucking hilarious.
May 28th, 2009 at 5:44 am
Wow, a political article that’s both smart and funny. Thank you Seanbaby! The Carlos Mencia quote was awesome.
May 28th, 2009 at 5:40 am
“9/11 only nuclear times spiders!” Hilarious.
May 28th, 2009 at 5:27 am
Tee hee. Now I’ll never be able to look at Cheney again without thinking “WARK!” in my mind each time he talks.
Thanks, Seanbaby.
May 28th, 2009 at 5:24 am
I agree with JohnsoNation: that fucked solid gold!
May 28th, 2009 at 5:13 am
I laughed hard at the cat joke.
May 28th, 2009 at 5:03 am
Not as funny as I spected but surprisingly smart, good job.
May 28th, 2009 at 4:58 am
That shit was funny as hell.
May 28th, 2009 at 4:52 am
I like the cat bit. That was good.
May 28th, 2009 at 4:48 am
I know, right?
May 28th, 2009 at 4:39 am
barely any comments - i guess we are some of the few who thought to get on the article from somewhere other than the home page
May 28th, 2009 at 4:38 am
Solid FUCKING Gold.
May 28th, 2009 at 4:27 am
hahahhhaahaa - i love you!!
i laughed so hard that now im in pain - the drowning pool addition and “fuck the remains” remark was just DONGTACULAR!
May 28th, 2009 at 4:26 am
It………it’s beautiful. I hate it when Cracked gets all political and shit, but I loved every pixel of it.