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I like me some Joss Whedon. I consider Angel and Firefly two of the best shows of the last 15 years. I "grr, arg" along with the end credits every time. The man knows how to write dialog, how to make badasses of the doofiest of nerds, how to make sexpots of the most unlikeliest of actors. He is a ginger titan, a colossus bestriding the tube of boob. Joss Whedon knows how to make great television. If only he did it more consistently, and without all the accompanying bullshit ... #5.
He Will Slaughter Everything That Makes You Happy Inside
Firefly fans loved Wash. Who didn't love Wash? Joss rammed a tree trunk through his chest for no reason. Penny from Dr. Horrible might be the most innocent, sweet natured girl Whedon's ever written. She ends Dr. Horrible bleeding out with a chunk of shrapnel stuck in her body, Normandy Beach style. Why? There is only one real lesson in Whedonland, and it's that loving cool people is dangerous because someone's probably gonna shove a flaming rock into their skull. In fact, this is the only way Whedon characters achieve growth. It's a recognized cliche amongst his fanbase: If someone makes you happy when you see them onscreen, grab your balls, because he's going to lacerate them heavily. Sometimes I don't mind a good nut-stabbing. I like The Wire, I like Battlestar Galactica. But sometimes I just wanna sit back and watch Doogie Howser sing songs about horsies into his webcam. It's at those times that I'd rather Joss Whedon not pop up like the "Toasty!" guy from Mortal Kombat and pulp my yambag with senseless death.
#4.
This Whole Feminist Empowerment Thing Smells Fishy
Yeah, Buffy kicked unholy ass, Zoe was Mal's Terminatrix-like enforcer, Faith begat Echo and Echo is the baddest ass Kung Fu Whore TV has ever seen, and yet, aside from the fact these girls have done some push ups and punched masculinity in its shriveled balls time and again, the idea that Whedon is some sort of hyper-feminist stinks as bad as Eliza Dushku's "acting." Joss shoots his actresses most lovingly when they're wet and crying and curled up in the fetal position, pressed up against a wall, broken, mascara running, bleeding, and reaching out. And what are they typically reaching out for? Some dude (or vampire or werewolf) and the dick he's attached to. That's it. That's as complex as it gets. Sound familiar? That's because it's also the image of women we get from every other movie or show written by men. And yet when a lisping nerd who tritely describes himself as "a lesbian in a man's body" does it to a high-school cheerleader, it's "feminist." This is like when Toni Morrison called Bill Clinton "The First Black President." You could only say such a thing if you were THAT willing to settle. His two most artistically successful shows are Angel and Firefly, both centered on men, and written from a male point of view. If I wanted to be glib (and I usually do) Angel and Firefly worked because they're basically "Batman in LA" and "Han Solo, the TV Show," respectively.
#3.
Nothing Bad is Ever Whedon's Fault
Even the finest screenwriters shit the bed. It happens. William Goldman, Oscar winning mind behind Butch Cassidy and The Princess Bride, also wrote the adaptation for Dreamcatcher. Did he blame anyone else for that crap? Of course not, he's a pro.
Alien Resurrection is just as shitty. But that's not Joss's fault. According to him: "They said the lines ... mostly ... but they said them all wrong," he said, regarding his script for Alien 4: KY-Shitfest in Space, before going on to say, "They cast it wrong. And they designed it wrong. And they scored it wrong. They did everything wrong that they could possibly do." So according to Joss, putting Michael Wincott, Ron Perlman, Brad Dourif, J.E. Freeman and Sigourney Weaver in your ALIEN movie is horrible casting. And the director, who also directed City of Lost Children, might as well be Helen Keller. But the writer, the guy who gave Ripley a robovag sidekick more annoying than C-3P0, and made the main villain a fucking Muppet Baby? You insult him in a dream, you better wake up and apologize.
#2.
Seriously, It's NEVER Whedon's Fault
We'll skip right past that bullshit line about electrocuted toads or whatever it was Whedon fed Halle Berry in the first X-Men movie. That was totally not his fault, either. The guy who writes Family Circus apparently did a dialog polish while Joss was coming up with new ways to get hot female co-stars to make out with each other onscreen (for feminism, of course.) Speaking of which, let's talk about Dollhouse. Dollhouse isn't getting crappy ratings because it's a bad show with a goofy premise played way too seriously, centered around a vapid "actress" with all the personality of a petrified turd. It's getting crappy ratings because of FOX. Sure, the network mercilessly drowned the superior Terminator: Sarah Connor Chronicles specifically to give Dollhouse an undeserved second season, but FOX is the big bad here, FOX is the reason the show lays there like a dead fish week after week, only sporadically flickering to life, like how a caveman banging rocks together might accidentally start a fire. At this point I think the show exists solely to collect ex-Battlestar Galactica actors like Pokemon, so Joss can giggle and get them to sign his Hello Kitty backpack.
#1.
His Most Vocal Fans are Fucking Assholes
To be fair, this is a complaint you could levy against any major geek property. Star Wars fans are the worst part of Star Wars, Trekkies ate shit for about 30 straight years and online discussions of your favorite shows are clogged with "Shippers," who disregard anything interesting and insightful about a show, and focus solely on badly-written fanfic fantasies for frantic bean-flicking, their stories swapped between shawl-wearing, cat-owning knitting enthusiasts squeeling until their lungs burst on LiveJournal.
But hardcore Whedonites? They are to Trekkies what the Nation of Islam were to the Civil Rights movement. It's like they don't even WATCH his shows anymore. I don't mean they don't tune in. I mean they don't actively watch, in the way Woody Harrelson wasn't HEARING Jimi in White Men Can't Jump. The images and sounds just wash over their angry brains, a collection of details they can clutch in a puddly fist to swing wildly at anyone proffering a "meh" in their Lord Whedon's general direction. It's like hearing someone brag about their personal library and you find out it's filled with nothing but Star Wars novels and Choose-Your-Own-Adventure books. I know they're printed on pulped trees and bought at a Borders, but that doesn't make them real books. Consuming those is an exercise in stunting your ability to appreciate real storytelling. I wouldn't trust a food critic if all he ever grubbed on were hot dogs, and I don't trust Whedonites when their experience with moving pictures begins and ends with Mutant Enemy productions. Once More With Feeling shouldn't be a goddamn Rocky Horror Picture Show. Fuck, it's not even a good musical. But then, you'd have to have watched another musical to know that. It's as if just watching the shows and enjoying them isn't enough. You have to proselytize and spring out of the corners of the Internet like the Whedon Inquisition, demanding tithings and tributes to the man's genius. It's a cult of apologism advertising itself as the face of Whedon fandom, and it's probably the single hardest thing about being a fan of the man's work - others will just assume that an apologist, argumentative asshole is what you are, too. |
i agree with some of your harshest criticisms levied against the writing. Especially #5. And while i like Eliza "bad girl" Dushku, i don't think she has the chops to carry off THE most complex, nuanced character of Dollhouse. When Joss says things like "They said the lines ... mostly ... but they said them all wrong," they mean her. i've seen some deliveries from her (and a stiff-lipped, scowling Tahmon Penhikett) that could've had punch and effect, but fell flat. i don't agree with your disparaging remarks against Once More, With Feeling though, but it's all opinion. Cruel and over the top in some places, but funny, and opinion and i can appreciate that. Places where your "glib" works: "Alien 4: KY-Shitfest in Space," "robovag," "Batman in LA" and "Han Solo, the TV Show." p.s. Please tell me there's an entire set of BSG Pokemon trading cards. i just Gotta Catch 'Em All!
I'm not a Whedon 'fan', but I did really enjoy Firefly and Serenity. I mostly disagree with point #5, and especially the person who said that 'The characters people like have to die. Why? Because he's not smart enough to come up with another way to create 'drama'.' Nobody died throughout the whole 13 episodes of Firefly, and yet it's a very popular, acclaimed show. Clearly Whedon has more tricks up his sleeve than that person seem to think. And with the risks portrayed as massive in Serenity, what with all the Reavers and that dangerous character played by Chiwetel Ejiofor, some people had to die, I suppose.
ChristianH, no, you DON'T "get it". You don't get a goddamn thing.
I completely agree with #5, I LOVE Whedon's work, but I can never watch anything by him without being emotionally mind raped. He kills off every character I start to like, as if he's in my mind, reading my thoughts, hearing me say "Oh I like this guy, he's awesome!" and then saying "Well f**k, time to kill him, mwuhahaha!". He also takes any story of his that starts as funny and bright, and by the end makes it a depressing suicide-enabler. If you don't believe me, try Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog and get back to me. Serenity is quite guilty of it too, simultaneously killing off three of my favorite characters from the Firefly show one by one without mercy. I always go into a Whedon production waiting for the emotional trauma now.
I completely agree with #5, I LOVE Whedon's work, but I can never watch anything by him without being emotionally mind raped. He kills off every character I start to like, as if he's in my mind, reading my thoughts, hearing me say "Oh I like this guy, he's awesome!" and then saying "Well f**k, time to kill him, mwuhahaha!". He also takes any story of his that starts as funny and bright, and by the end makes it a depressing suicide-enabler. If you don't believe me, try Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog and get back to me. Serenity is quite guilty of it too, simultaneously killing off three of my favorite characters from the Firefly show one by one without mercy. I always go into a Whedon production waiting for the emotional trauma now.
I love Whedon, but the thing that gets me is any of the numerous times throughout the Whedon canon when a character starts speaking in pseudo-profound gibberish (e.g., River throughout Firefly) like a combination of Cassandra and post-breakup Ophelia. What, someone's going to club me with a bat tomorrow? Say it, don't say, "Heavy stick boom, watch out!" with a frightened look on your face and then pass out in a cold sweat.
Another reason would be Sarah Michelle Gellar and her four facial expressions. I really can't stand her acting.
Not one mention of the guy's race issues? Really? Okay, I love me some "Buffy," "Angel" and "Firefly" as much as the next person, but seriously. Joss Whedon's California has no Latinos, and apparently only has four black people, only one of which got out of the two series alive. His "hyperfeminism" and race issues intersect ever-so-delightfully when it comes to women of color; the man can't dispose of them to enhance a white character or male character's arc fast enough. (Gunn's sister, any Slayers that weren't white except Kennedy, making the original African Slayer the foil to Buffy's goodness in all of her appearances. Yeah, no pattern there at all.) Then the pinnacle in "Firefly," when he created a universe where there are planets with names like Jiangyin, everyone speaks Mandarin, lots of people eat with chopsticks, and the good guys and bad guys alike quote fictitious Eastern philosophers, but there are no freakin' Asian people. It's a universe where the Chinese must have lived at one time, but...are mysteriously gone now, for no apparent reason. Except, of course, for two lurking in the background one time, literally barbecuing puppies. So while I think your analysis is mostly spot on...you forgot one. ;-)
Follicle: The first season is kinda a 'growing pains' season on Buffy. If you can stick it out, the second season is when it starts getting truly amazing (and also features some of the offered reasons it sucks to be a JW fan) Gonna also disagree with the assessment of OMWF - that musical rocked, and I say this as someone who has 20+ musical cast recordings amongst his CD collection. It would never work onstage, but in the context of the show it was brilliant. I never checked into Dollhouse or Firefly, my loved stayed with Buffy and Angel. And the forums I went to were dominated by shippers. If I ever here the term 'Spuffy' or 'Spangel' or 'Bangel' again, I might start face-punching. I agree that Alien Resurrection sucked. I'm fairly certain the only person who cared in that movie was Sigourney Weaver. But Joss was one of 6 writers for it, so I cut him some slack for shifting blame on that. Same with X-Men - multiple writers, which can screw up the flow of the script. Plus Halle Berry sucked in all those movies, and he said as much in an interview, which is awesome. Great article.
oh! I was with you almost until the very last point. But once more with feeling really was one of the best pieces of television in a dog's age. Suhch good music! totally wonderful, probably cannot be praised too much. Better than RENT, and even AVENUE Q
I watched the first five episodes of Buffy and couldn't believe how awful and hokey it was. Can anybody give me a reason I should keep watching? I hear such amazing things about the show, but watching it is an exercise in cringing tedium.
Christian, you've really highlighted the problem with Whedon's work, and others like him. The characters people like have to die. Why? Because I'm not smart enough to come up with another way to create "drama." It's like that Roland Emmerich turd "The Patriot." Every time the movie needed a kick, he'd just have Jason Isaacs murder another sympathetic character. This isn't dramatic or deep or anything. It's just lazy. This is why Whedon is a hack, and why I can't stand any of the WB-level garbage that gets on TV so often.
Yay for, in Whedon speak, the daring to criticize. Face it, non one who had never been interested in a whedone show would be here. I think the guy was prone to sabotaging his own stuff and has the attention span of a nat. I watched though, and, usually, enjoyed myself. Itt hard to improve or even maintain whithout criticism, self or otherwise.
Most of these comments just echo what's stated above. How do you deep six a very respectible franchise trying to right the wrongs of a rushed threequel? Cast Ron Perlman along side Sigourney Weaver? Nah, Hinge the entire product on a freaking basketball game, thats how. Way to ruin any hope of another decent Alien movie Whedon. Terminator Chronicles got deep sixed by Fox for an overhyped pile of dung. Joss Whedon circa 95' : Roberto Orci circa 05'
First, I would like to say that it's nice to see criticism of Whedon from an actual Whedon fan. But, I think Buffy and Firefly are the best of Whedon. Not that I don't love Angel... because... well.... of course I do.
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Think you missed the point of the article, ChristianH, and inadvertantly proved it in the process. I'm pretty sure the point was that he DOES like Joss Whedon, but that he doesn't think Whedon is infallible. It's the uber-fans that think everything Whedon touches is gold that annoy the sh*t out of him. He wrote this because he dig's Whedon's work but doesn't want to be painted with the same strident, whiny brush as the vast majority of the fans.
Okay, you don't like Joss Whedon. WE GET IT. But as a musical theater actor, "Once More With Feeling" is a great musical, and yes, it's better than the Rocky Horror Picture show. Consider the plot of the Rocky Horror Picture Show. Oh wait, you can't, because it doesn't really even have one. It's a bunch of s**t thrown together into a show. It's funny and fun to watch in groups, but you can't call it a quality musical. Second, Whedon was a Women's Studies major. I'm not saying your assertions on that front are wrong, just that you failed to take that into consideration. Sigourney Weaver is one of the most overrated actresses of all time, and yes, the cast of Alien: Ressurection sucked. You also can't forget that Whedon was not a big name when he made that movie. Studio's don't let writers breathe often, especially when they're taking over a classic franchise. Plus, City of Lost Children sucked. #5 is part of the reason I love Whedon's work. He gives the hard lessons and doesn't let fanboys bully him. Even I, as a fan of his showing Dr. Horrible's to people, was practically berated because Penny died, as if somehow it was my fault or that it didn't make the ending ten times more interesting. Of course that's the way it happened; they spent the whole show building up to him trying to kill Captain Hammer and trying to become a truly evil villain, no s**t he needs something terrible like that to happen to him for it to work. Wash? That seemed to me like a death for convenience. He would have been terrible in that last action sequence simply because his character wouldn't have fit the mood; that scene was crowded enough. On top of all that, this list has a terribly misleading title. This seems more like "Reasons to Hate On Joss Whedon" than anything to do with his fanbase.
Amner, oh sorry that lumping part was for the writer of the article not you :-). He does recycle actors but I think I love that he does that, with the exception of Eliza (the woman just can't act.....actually that's not true, what I ment to say was that she can only act one part - bad girl). I find myself drawn to the supporting cast of Dollhouse rather then Echo.
Thank you for writing this. I wanted an article like this so bad, I even tried to write one myself. But, alas, I just couldn't find a headline better than "7 reasons Joss Wheadon is the s**t but not, you know, god". So, yeah, thanks.
@rayna yeah, i kind of picked tru calling out of semi-thin air, whedon uses dushku for several series' (buffy, dollhouse) and uses the actors he knows repeatedly. i didnt actually lump you all together as crazy, and i dont think anyone is actually saying "all fans of whedon are nuts" actually im quite a whedon fan myself.
Well kid, what can conclude except that you must be a Joss Whedon fan, since you are a f**king a*****e *g*
OMG WHAT DO YOU MEAN WITH THAT JOSS IS THE MOST AWESOMEST SHOWRUNNER EVER ONCE MORE W/ FEELING WAS AMAZING DOLLHOUSE IS THE MOST BRILLIANT SHOW ON TV SO GO WATCH THE HILLS OR SOMETHING MORON No, seriously. II do think he's a great writer and somewhat of an idol for me, but the fandom does go pretty insane. And it's tiring most of the time, actually. I'd rather just watch his shows and not get caught up in the crazy worshipping. Still, I'm a huge Whedon fan and although I disagree with many things you said (and agree with others), I can see your point. (but I do think Once More, With Feeling is an awesome episode. and yep, I'm on the way to really liking Dollhouse)
How dare you blaspheme against the all mighty creator of Buffyverse. It burnt my eyes to read such filth. Joss is all things good. Praise him. Ok, Aliens Resurrection sucked...I've got no way to support that. And the toad thing, horror. But Joss is the Greatest. Really, a writer doesn't have to be perfect to be talented. I dearly love Buffy, Angel, and Firefly. I really enjoyed Serenity, and that web based Dr. Whatsoevil thing. But, I don't feel obligated to like everything he scribbles on paper. One last point, Eliza Dushku does not need to act to be entertaining.
Amner, Joss had nothing to do with Tru Calling. I agree with most that Eliza can NOT act. Pleas don't lump us all togeather as crazy. I am a big fan of Whedon but evin I know he's not the god of writers. I also know that over all he has done some amazing things. We, as fans choose to ignore the few crapy things and focus on all of the good things :-).
Amner, Joss had nothing to do with Tru Calling. I agree with most that Eliza can NOT act. Pleas don't lump us all togeather as crazy. I am a big fan of Whedon but evin I know he's not the god of writers. I also know that over all he has done some amazing things. We, as fans choose to ignore the few crapy things and focus on all of the good things :-).
Amner, Joss had nothing to do with Tru Calling. I agree with most that Eliza can NOT act. Pleas don't lump us all togeather as crazy. I am a big fan of Whedon but evin I know he's not the god of writers. I also know that over all he has done some amazing things. We, as fans choose to ignore the few crapy things and focus on all of the good things :-).
Amner, Joss had nothing to do with Tru Calling. I agree with most that Eliza can NOT act. Pleas don't lump us all togeather as crazy. I am a big fan of Whedon but evin I know he's not the god of writers. I also know that over all he has done some amazing things. We, as fans choose to ignore the few crapy things and focus on all of the good things :-).
Wow, you were right. Just look at all the anger in these comments. I didn't know who Joss Whedon was until I read this article, but I have seen some of his shows. (not bad, but not worship-worthy). You would think that when someone publicly calls you out on your fanatical psychotic devotion to a guy who writes so-so TV shows aimed at the 13-18 year-old females demographic, you would just pretend you didn't read it. These people are WAY worse than Star Wars convention attendees - they have higher standards.
Come on, what's with all the hate? The last time you said hateful things about the Whedon fandom and I called you out on it, you said you weren't talking about all Whedon fans. But here you are again, generalizing and blaming a whole fandom for the behavior of a very small fringe. Was I wrong to think you're better than that?
"Once More With Feeling shouldn't be a goddamn Rocky Horror Picture Show. Fuck, it's not even a good musical. But then, you'd have to have watched another musical to know that" Um, not true. I've seen tons of musicals and OMWF, while not the greatest musical ever, is still a great musical. Perhaps not on it's own, but within the context of the show. Oh and FOX -is- the the main reason for Dollhouse's poor ratings: the gave it a s**tty time slot on a s**tty day and they also interfered with Joss's original vision for the pilot which I know put a lot of people off.
@nova_NIN Whedon is like marmite (its a clique i know but it fits). those who dont like his work, or dont like some of it, REALLY dont like it. like i deteste some of his most recent work- dollhouse, tru calling (although i may just dislike elisha dushku) and those who like his work REALLY love it, firefly has become a cult classic, with groups like the browncoats (of which i proudly am a member). anyhoo, my point is the "big deal" with his shows is they're good, generally, nothing more to it really.
Whedon is good, but I think he is way too overrated. So far I haven't seen what the big deal is with his shows, they make for good television, but are in no way the ultimate tv shows everyone claims them to be. His characters are well written, sure, but he suffers too much of the Kevin Smith and Brian Michale Bendis stuff of "talking whatever and unrelated to the matter at hand random s**t makes it look like I have a personality" And there is his work in comics. It's the same thing over there, Astonishing X-Men was the greatest comic ever not because of the artwork, or the stories, or the dialogue, it's because it waswritten by Joss Whedon. It wasn't that great either, his first story arc was amazing, one of the best stories I have read, but by the time he is done, it's more like Shadowcat The Vampire Slayer. Kitty saves the world, gets the best dialogue, everyone talks about how awesome she is and "pwns" Wolverine And Emma Frost because she is that cool. The others are just stand-ins, and Hisako, geez, she is the worst case of "pushing" in comics. Cannonball took YEARS to get a place with the big-boys, same for other "kid" characters, Hisako, who is written by Whedon, was part of the "elite X-Men team" after 12 issues. Because she "porved" herself, never mind that the others fought alien bugs, skrulls, galactus, demons and stuff. Whew, that was a lot of fanboy rage I needed to let go. Firefly sucks by the way (nah just kidding) (not really)
This is a great improvement over your "A Serious Man" article, and I actually enjoyed it, but I am at a loss to how Whedon's "Feminism" makes it suck to be his fan. You didn't draw a connection between that to being a fan of him sucking. Admittedly, the same could be said for the two items on him evading responsibility, but the problems with those can be inferred. The same is not true with the "feminism" given you made the argument his work really isn't feminist. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with your feminist point, however. I'm just saying you need to make a clearer connection to why that makes being his fan suck. It can't be inferred from what you wrote.
how the f**k do you go from vampire tv shows to a dude you know who married an obease woman and stopped having sex? Lay off the drugs dude.
I don't know what's worse, the fact that there are people who actually liked Buffy the Vampire Mythology Destroyer, or the fact that these cretinous mouth breathing paedophiles in training are actually allowed to operate freely in adult society. I know a guy who still likes that afterbirth of a show, even now after getting married to some aging walrus and being forced into a life of perpetual minimum wage working to pay for the children he got in exchange for his sex life. I look at that man, at where I imagine his penis used to be, and I say "sorry bro, but you brought this hell on yourself". Vampires used to be awesome. Creepy, other worldly, and indeed a potent metaphor for rape. Or if you're ultra right wing, h**osexual attacks. Now they are cheap, "villain of the week" b-grade crap. And this joke, this TV equivalent of Michael Bay, is more to blame than anyone.
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Angel is s**tty? That's turd in Internet comment form. And everybody know Alien: R had Whedon's script get mangled then handed to a an eccentric French director.
I have to say that this article and its comments reek of unnecessary and rude resentment and hate. Are you all deeply embittered because of the loss of TSCC? ...because that is the only instance where Joss Whedon has "done" anything to hurt any of you-----and even then, it was purely a financial decision made by the network. Sarah Connor fans need to stop begrudging Dollhouse for its cancellation. Both were given second chances, and both will probably fail in their second chances. For some reason, people cannot accept the fact that someone else may like something they do not. Why do they then find it necessary to bash something/someone simply because they don't think they're #1? We could all just as easily have a scathing, cens*red debate over which color is better, green or blue? Some people like Joss Whedon's work, and others do not. Is it necessary to (exaggeratedly) insult the fanbase and the overall product simply to make you feel better about the things that you DO like? I think that the person writing this article is grinding an axe about something and saying hurtful things just for the sake of it. I will never understand how people like that operate or why they find it necessary to bring other people and their work and interests down. I hope someday they grow up and find a less offensive way to make a thought-provoking point.
um, not all of us have finished bsg. might not wanna be dicks and ruin certain spoilers for us. thnx.
Any male who admits to being Wheldon fan much less writing a lengthy list about it needs to have his dong ripped off and shoved up his ass.
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Rocky Horror shouldn't be a Rocky Horror... sheesh what a horrible movie that has been totally blown out of proportion way beyond any Whedon fandom. I can totally see some of the points made here within the article - Whedon's shows are enjoyable. But they're just entertainment (Browncoats please don't kill me!).
goddamn, you're an ass. terminator had a great 1st season, but its second season was SHIT! it deserved to be cancelled after that travesty. and what the f**k is your problem? you hate once more with feeling, one of the best buffy episodes ever, you don't like buffy and its apparent you don't like joss whedon. You have no right to comment on his work, you son of a f**king bra\in dead b***h!
Once More With Feeling shouldn't be a goddamn Rocky Horror Picture Show. Thank you. THANK YOU!
I wouldn't go so far as to say that Joss is taking "feminism" back a step. I am not a feminist, I am an equalist, and I believe (granted, I am mostly just a Buffy fan) that Joss has accomplished this, without force-feeding overly masculine/powerful women to prove that women can be equal to men. That whole "whimpering for the werewolf dick" bit isn't the climax of the work of our actresses at all. There are love stories involved, but a woman in love, or a woman needing help isn't a sign of weakness at all. These women are human too, it would be unrealistic to make them omnipowerful to prove they are equal to men, so why not show their weakness and ALLOW them to be...human? Not to mention the Willow/Tara aspect, which could fight my argument for me (no vampc**k-grapling there, but hell; there was power!) All that being said, I lol'ed at #1 because it was the #1 I was hoping for. This prevents there being any possibility I could ever admit to being a fan to anyone. Ever. Thank you for naming the elephant in the middle of the room.
I remember the trailer for "Serenity" promising that it would present Whedon's "unique vision of the future". Well, it's "unique" to anyone who had never seen "Star Wars", "Blake's 7" or any other "ragtag misfits vs. the evil government" story. And "Angel" owes a great deal to "Forever Knight". I'm not saying that his work is bad, just that it isn't as wonderfully original as some seem to believe.
case and point
I love, love, love Buffy, Its the best show ever, I'll defend it to death to prove its good television. But that doesnt mean Im blind or close minded enough to think everything whedon created is pure genious. Damn, there are parts of buffy that made me want to hang myself. Very interesting insight about Joss' so called feminism, even tough I still see buffy as a fairly feminist show - in comparison to what else is out there - you make a good point, the whole thing is very fishy, and eventually taken by a man's point of view.
Angel is a ridiculous show, you're argument is invalid. As a huge Whedonnite, I still have the good judgment to know that Angel has meandering plotlines and bigger plotholes than the crater in buffy. Saying that Angel is good because it's a masculine perspective really makes men out to be shallow, whiny, unreliable and mere muscle. Spike stole season five because Angel is such a s**tty show. Plus Whedon didn't even have hardly any hands in the majority of angel.
Angel is a ridiculous show, you're argument is invalid. As a huge Whedonnite, I still have the good judgment to know that Angel has meandering plotlines and bigger plotholes than the crater in buffy. Saying that Angel is good because it's a masculine perspective really makes men out to be shallow, whiny, unreliable and mere muscle. Spike stole season five because Angel is such a s**tty show. Plus Whedon didn't even have hardly any hands in the majority of angel.
Damn it a double comment and no f**king paragraphs in my whole f**king rant! To that i say Grr and Argh equally!
For all of the Buffy/Angel/Firefly references i see on your site and in various articles, i thought you would give a little more love to the man who started it all. I'm not saying you have to worship everything he does and conveniently forget all of the flukes. But this was more or less a Joss bashing article...which makes me sad. There have been plenty of times i've watched an episode of his top three shows and pointed out mistakes or flaws, i'm not quite the rabid fan you portray us as, but i'm sure as s**t not going to just go 'meh' this is just another cracked article. Pointing out flaws is what you guys do best, maybe you should take a gander at your own work. The only one of your points i will agree with is #5 because yeah Joss does like to stab your favorite characters through the heart, then take the knife out and give it a good lick for added discomfort. As for #4: Did you guys even watch Buffy, or just buy the dvd set to make your nerd friends think you're cool when they pop over for a little World of Warcraft theme party? I can maybe think of two instances where weeping bruised women were reaching up for their dude's mr. peepers. The most obvious counter point i can make is that (like every other show on tv) the chicks aren't constantly running around in skimp-tastic clothing with their meat flaps poking out. They actually are the equivalent of real live females, of course minus the mythical magical superpowers most of them seem to possess. I hate to get all real and nostalgic, but i grew up with Buffy. As a tiny version of my current self, this was basically all i had when it came to role models. A female character who was smart, could fend for herself, was mentally strong, didn't dress like a big 'ol ho bag, could love lose and recover, was responsible, was always there for people, didn't do every little f**king thing just to please the entire male gender. Honestly, throw out some examples, it's usually what you guys do best. Let's check out #3. For as much time as i've spent on the boards for his shows, i have never once seen anyone or any article mention Joss blaming Alien 4's nauseating symptoms on everyone but himself. If you were the Angel fan you profess to be then you'd remember a little episode called, "Fredless". You know where one of the characters puts in a little dig towards the last Aliens. I've even heard (can't know for sure if it is fact or not) that Joss use to teach classes on how NOT to write movies, basing the entire lecture around, you guessed it, Alien 4. Watch the featurettes. The writers (including Joss) are always the first ones to admit to mistakes, usually in a comical tone of voice. Off to #2. I'm going to pretty much say, "see number one." But if you are going to reference one s**tty ass line in X-men that was indeed delivered terribly by Halle Berry, you should also reference the other that was pretty much the best line in that whole flick. Has a little something to do with Cyclops being a dick. Need i say more...i think not. I know you are letting out a little chuckle just thinking about it. Ding, ding, ding #1! To say that the Whedon fans don't even watch his shows anymore is like saying Trekkies have no idea who that weird guy in the Priceline commercials is.
For all of the Buffy/Angel/Firefly references i see on your site and in various articles, i thought you would give a little more love to the man who started it all. I'm not saying you have to worship everything he does and conveniently forget all of the flukes. But this was more or less a Joss bashing article...which makes me sad. There have been plenty of times i've watched an episode of his top three shows and pointed out mistakes or flaws, i'm not quite the rabid fan you portray us as, but i'm sure as s**t not going to just go 'meh' this is just another cracked article. Pointing out flaws is what you guys do best, maybe you should take a gander at your own work. The only one of your points i will agree with is #5 because yeah Joss does like to stab your favorite characters through the heart, then take the knife out and give it a good lick for added discomfort. As for #4: Did you guys even watch Buffy, or just buy the dvd set to make your nerd friends think you're cool when they pop over for a little World of Warcraft theme party? I can maybe think of two instances where weeping bruised women were reaching up for their dude's mr. peepers. The most obvious counter point i can make is that (like every other show on tv) the chicks aren't constantly running around in skimp-tastic clothing with their meat flaps poking out. They actually are the equivalent of real live females, of course minus the mythical magical superpowers most of them seem to possess. I hate to get all real and nostalgic, but i grew up with Buffy. As a tiny version of my current self, this was basically all i had when it came to role models. A female character who was smart, could fend for herself, was mentally strong, didn't dress like a big 'ol ho bag, could love lose and recover, was responsible, was always there for people, didn't do every little f**king thing just to please the entire male gender. Honestly, throw out some examples, it's usually what you guys do best. Let's check out #3. For as much time as i've spent on the boards for his shows, i have never once seen anyone or any article mention Joss blaming Alien 4's nauseating symptoms on everyone but himself. If you were the Angel fan you profess to be then you'd remember a little episode called, "Fredless". You know where one of the characters puts in a little dig towards the last Aliens. I've even heard (can't know for sure if it is fact or not) that Joss use to teach classes on how NOT to write movies, basing the entire lecture around, you guessed it, Alien 4. Watch the featurettes. The writers (including Joss) are always the first ones to admit to mistakes, usually in a comical tone of voice. Off to #2. I'm going to pretty much say, "see number one." But if you are going to reference one s**tty ass line in X-men that was indeed delivered terribly by Halle Berry, you should also reference the other that was pretty much the best line in that whole flick. Has a little something to do with Cyclops being a dick. Need i say more...i think not. I know you are letting out a little chuckle just thinking about it. Ding, ding, ding #1! To say that the Whedon fans don't even watch his shows anymore is like saying Trekkies have no idea who that weird guy in the Priceline commercials is.
Look, the man is pretty prolific, so there's going to be a lot of s**t mixed in with the good. I for one think he's loads better then the other crap that's on network TV. The man isn't god, but he's a pretty damn good writer, and creating at least one kickass show validates him in my eyes.
didnt mean to comment twice. my bad.
I'm sure I won't be the only one to bring this up, (re: Dollhouse) but it kind of is FOX's fault. They gave it "The Friday Night Death Slot". I mean, whose fault was it that "Firefly" got canceled? Oh so then it was FOX's fault, but not this time?
"Whedon was threatening to never do television again, and after the success of Serenity and the internet backlash over Firefly, Fox was willing to do just about anything he told them to." "Serenity" was not a success at all, at least not commercially. It's only really a success in the way that "Firefly" has been a success, and that's to say that the franchise has a pretty rabid fanbase that's only really drawn attention to it after the fact. "Serenity" did 25 million at the box office, which is pretty lousy. The people that saw it liked it for the most part, but such a relatively small following doesn't translate to big box office at all. The person that posted the comment above said themselves that they weren't even aware of the original show when it was on the air, so in a way, without even knowing it, they were also at fault for the show's failure, which paved the way for the movie's failure, as the movie performed about as well as a film based on a TV show that was never given a solid push and only lasted half a season could have been expected to perform. When playing in a small enough pond, Whedon is a pretty big fish, as it doesn't take much to keep a show alive on the CW or former WB and UPN networks. That works out great in Whedon's case, as he was allowed to tell the story he wanted to for as long as he wanted to without having to pull in 20 million viewers a week. Even the highest rated shows on the smaller networks would get the axe on the bigger ones though, which is why "Firefly" died a quick death and "Dollhouse" is lucky to still be on the air.
And I made my way to it because it was posted on Twitter by WhedonFanNews (a major Whedon fan group) as a discussion provoking opinion column.
Joss Whedon fans a such f**king ass holes that this article was posted on Whedonesque and it got deleted because it's "insulting". If you are not saying nice pretty things about Joss Whedon, the ass holes think it's just "rant" and therefore shouldn't even been discussed.
It was Fox's fault that Firefly got canceled because they changed the time slot, didn't show episodes in order (not even starting with the pilot) and not even showing some episodes. Also, they would show reruns and postpone new episodes, even though they had them to show, on top of the fact that there was absolutely no advertising. I wasn't even aware of its existence until my cousin bought the boxed set and showed it to me. Dollhouse was different. Whedon was threatening to never do television again, and after the success of Serenity and the internet backlash over Firefly, Fox was willing to do just about anything he told them to. I heard about that goddam show every ten minutes on Fox, the retarded Peaches song destroying my mind months before the show even premiered. Also, wasn't X-files on Friday nights for years back in the day? That's when I started watching it. It remained pretty successful, think. Didn't they make a movie...or two? Dollhouse just isn't as good as Firefly. Dollhouse is only slightly more entertaining than a video of a child playing with an actual dollhouse.
And you think Dollhouse would do better any other night?! With these numbers it would be cancelled before season 1 ended if it weren't on fridays! Even with DVR improving the show's ratings 50% it still only gets 2.0 in the demo. And when the show premiered over 4 million people watched the first episode, since then it's lost about 2 million viewers. If people saw it at first and didn't come back it's because they didn't like it, which had nothing to do with Fox or friday night! A lot of shows do well on friday night, Medium is getting great numbers on CBS, eventhough it sucks.
I'm sure I won't be the only one to bring this up, (re: Dollhouse) but it kind of is FOX's fault. They gave it "The Friday Night Death Slot". I mean, whose fault was it that "Firefly" got canceled? Oh so then it was FOX's fault, but not this time?
And don't get me started on Firefly lunatics that like to say Buffy sucks! Just throw it in their faces Buffy had a 7-season run while Firefly didn't even finish its first! And Angel was in no way more successful than Buffy. Buffy had higher ratings and was designed to end in season seven, while Angel got cancelled!
:( I'm one of the most vocal fans I know.... am I a "f**king a*****e?" I try to be nice and civil to everyone, and I thought I was doing an ok job.
The only point you make that I agree with is that Whedon's most vocal fans are f**king a*****es. And it's their fault that it is naver "Whedon's fault". They can't stop yapping about how Fox cancelled Firefly and how Fox is treating Dollhouse badly. First of all, Dollhouse was never the really awesome show it promised to be and if people don't watch it that has a lot more to do with the quality than whatever Fox did. And try talking to some Whedon fan that organizes save shows campaigns. If you don't have a connection to the man or the network or whatever they won't even respond. These people think they are f**king celebrities because they are worshipping at Whedon's altar. And of course, all the crappy Dollhouse episodes are not his fault, the last season of Buffy was sucky and that is not his fault, Angel had some crappy storylines and that is so no his fault. And of course, they think Fox should've just kept Firefly eventhough it made no financial sense to the network to keep it because a couple thousand people loved it. Grrr argh to stupid fans! Go read a book.
The only point you make that I agree with is that Whedon's most vocal fans are f**king a*****es. And it's their fault that it is naver "Whedon's fault". They can't stop yapping about how Fox cancelled Firefly and how Fox is treating Dollhouse badly. First of all, Dollhouse was never the really awesome show it promised to be and if people don't watch it that has a lot more to do with the quality than whatever Fox did. And try talking to some Whedon fan that organizes save shows campaigns. If you don't have a connection to the man or the network or whatever they won't even respond. These people think they are f**king celebrities because they are worshipping at Whedon's altar. And of course, all the crappy Dollhouse episodes are not his fault, the last season of Buffy was sucky and that is not his fault, Angel had some crappy storylines and that is so no his fault. And of course, they think Fox should've just kept Firefly eventhough it made no financial sense to the network to keep it because a couple thousand people loved it. Grrr argh to stupid fans! Go read a book.
I think the real issue here is that Joss Whedon is a s**t writer.
Calm down, David.
So much angst by the tasteless Whedonf*gs. Dollhouse had at the most 4 decent episodes in Season 1. It deserved to be canceled. TSCC has maybe 4 bad episodes out of 32. And those "bad" episodes were better than the best Dullhouse episodes. Firefly was a fluke, because everything else he has done that I saw was a steaming pile. Dr.Horrible was f**king retarded. I laughed once, at the "Hammer is my penis" line. Josh Fatman > Joss Whedon. Suck it.
Actually, Once More with Feeling is a pretty damn good musical...and I've seen a lot of them. It's not my favourite musical of all time, but it probably would make the top 10. Also, Buffy is Whedons most successful show. Screw this "artistically successful", who's opinion is that? Your's? It doesn't matter that YOU think that Angel and Firefly SHOULD be more successful, because Buffy IS the most successful Joss Whedon show...yeah, that show centered around a teenage girl did far better and is far more well known than any of his shows centered around a man.
Actually, Once More with Feeling is a pretty damn good musical...and I've seen a lot of them. It's not my favourite musical of all time, but it probably would make the top 10. Also, Buffy is Whedons most successful show. Screw this "artistically successful", who's opinion is that? Your's? It doesn't matter that YOU think that Angel and Firefly SHOULD be more successful, because Buffy IS the most successful Joss Whedon show...yeah, that show centered around a teenage girl did far better and is far more well known than any of his shows centered around a man.
Holy toledo batman that is hilarious! http://www.electroniccigarettesinc.com
#1 in this article applies very well to anime fans also. Especially about the part about bragging about their personal library.
All excellent shows Fatboy! I also much prefer the UK Office. Have you watched Deadwood?
You know, i hate buffy, and i hate dollhouse...but firefly was the most entertaining show to ever come on tv. I will miss it sorely...until i'm rich enough to bring it back lol. It will happen...one day.
Hey guys. Just for clarification purposes: This article at hitfix.com by Daniel Feinberg (http://tinyurl.com/oy8hwm) explains the machinations behind the Terminator cancelling in favor of Dollhouse. Reason 2 wasn't written out of disgruntlement towards my favorite show being axed, and for the record, my top 3 favorite shows are The Wire, Battlestar Galactica, and The Office (UK). Thanks again.
My friends recommended me a very interesting place __AgelessFriends.com__ It's a nice and free place for Younger Women and Older Men, or Older Women and Younger Men, to interact with each other. Age gap is not a problem there. You may wanna check it out and tell your friends.
My friends recommended me a very interesting place __AgelessFriends.com__ It's a nice and free place for Younger Women and Older Men, or Older Women and Younger Men, to interact with each other. Age gap is not a problem there. You may wanna check it out and tell your friends.
Right now the responses are proving to be an unexpected second half of this article. I like some of Whedon's stuff, but Dollhouse was boring as hell. Buffy was the WORST part of her own damned show, and killing off the 'comic relief/thoughtful' characters doesn't count as a valid method of promoting character development in the rest of the cast. When I watched the pilot of Dollhouse I could tell who he wanted to kill, and it just made the entire thing a ridiculous exercise in 'Joss Whedon is totally going to get screwed by Fox'. He's f**ked it up. They got in s**t for canceling Firefly (almost a year after it happened) and then they give him a second chance to produce something awesome and he gives them the Eliza Dushku Is A Terrible Actor hour. Nice job. And stop writing 800 word responses trying to criticize this article... You are proving the point, you're ignorant and childish ;)
I don't agree with the last point entirely. Yes, some of the most vocal members of his fanbase ARE a*****es, but that's because it is a fanbase. Honestly, I don't think there is a serious fanbase out there who does not have a sect of vocal a*****es. As for nothing being his fault, well yea, I agree with that one. However, Joss is not the first director with a huge ego and he won't be the last.
Wow, just look at all the angry Whedonites here.
Wow, major kewl dude. Wow I like it! RT www.true-privacy.net.tc
The essay-length of all the ranting in the feedback session pretty much proves the point about the fanbase. This was one of those articles that just plain needed to be said.
Wait... Joss Whedon was hired as a script doctor for X-Men 1, but his edits were thrown out!
I'm not huge on Eliza's acting most of the time, but I wouldn't dismiss Dollhouse as a "a goofy premise played way too seriously". On the contrary, I think it's one of the most poignant, thought-provoking premises Whedon has ever conceived. Upon completing a viewing of the first season, my roommate and I stayed up all night engaged in a resulting discussion about identity, what really defines consciousness, existentialism, death, whether or not there is really anything remotely resembling a soul, memory and human nature. I don't think a "goofy premise" would have provoked such analysis. I could be biased since Dollhouse reminds me rather strongly of perhaps my favorite movie ever, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, and because I find a few of the Dollhouse employees extremely relateable... but even so, I love the show, perhaps even moreso than Firefly (which is really saying something, because I loved Firefly to an extreme). I also have to say that deaths in Whedonverse aren't so random as you make them out to be. Wash's death in Serenity, for instance, really set up the tension for the climax of the film. After he died, I thought all bets were off and that the entire cast might die in that final battle... which made for a really thrilling viewing experience. And Wash was my favorite character.
You're really embittered about Eliza Dushku doing Seth McFarlane. Okay, we get it. No reason to take it out on us. And for future reference, when you have to pretend like a screenwriter has any influence over anything to do with a movie once it's in production, you're pretty obviously stretching for a point. Oh, and you forgot the headline template: "Why [sacredcow=4133][/sacredcow] Actually Sucks And Is Terrible And You Are A Bad Person For Thinkng Otherwise."
You're really embittered about Eliza Dushku doing Seth McFarlane. Okay, we get it. No reason to take it out on us. And for future reference, when you have to pretend like a screenwriter has any influence over anything to do with a movie once it's in production, you're pretty obviously stretching for a point. Oh, and you forgot the headline template: "Why Actually Sucks And Is Terrible And You Are A Bad Person For Thinkng Otherwise."
I find it difficult to understand why anyone would assume that a woman showing a weakness makes her "weak" or anti-feminist. Apparently, the only strong women out there are women who never show any emotions - so, I guess there aren't any strong women out there. This tendency for media to make any woman they want to display as strong so very masculine is annoying (although I do love some of them anyway- hi Starbuck!), and is one of the reasons I love Joss' women. Yes, they have feelings. Yes, they act kind of stupid sometimes. They're real women (real people), with problems, and those problems allow you to relate to them and know that you can be strong despite your own weaknesses. Why do we feel like we need to eradicate "femininity" to make females strong? I send out my love to Buffy, Cordy and Zoe, for showing that femininity can be strong in its own right - it doesn't have to disguise itself as anything else. I can't tell if I don't find this funny (besides the first part) because I'm a Whedon fan, or if it's because it's seriously not funny. I wish I had someone impartial to let me know. It feels like you're straddling that funny/douchebag line, but leaning more into the douche.
The Sarah Connor Chronicles was a flaming s**t filled paper bag wrapped in summer glau imo. It f**ked with the already f**ked up timelines of Terminator, and they ended up using summer glau as the selling point. If you're gonna make a show and try to sell it, try to sell it as a good show, not as "we have summer glau in a badass chick role....again". I disagree with you on Once more with feeling, as i'm sure will most buffy (not necessarily whedon) fans. but that's just my opinion. as for your take on "whedonites"... well, let's just say, just as there are bikers and bikies, and trekkers and trekkies, there are whedon fans and whedonites. whedonites are the idiots who sully the name of true joss whedon fans, they are, like trekkies, the ones who make EVERYONE who is a joss whedon fan look like douchbags... tired now /endrant
"(Feminist intellectuals and academics are notorious suckers for Buffy, but cf. that Toni Morrison-Bill Clinton syndrome: it wasn't that Buffy or the Big Dog were any great leap forward, but rather that the rest of geekdom/politics just sucked THAT badly." LOL. If the rest of geekdom/politics sucked THAT badly, then Buffy or the Big Dog WERE great leaps forward, weren't they..... kind of cancelled your own argument there (as did the others making the point....) Anyway. Really really got into Sarah Connor, did I (okay, not that way, too bad...)... but was already too late (caught it on HULU). I've noticed something peculiar in Whedon's shows, Firefly and Dollhouse, that I call "incestuous." Firefly, within only 14 episodes, had several characters repeating for no real reason, considering they're supposedly traveling the " 'verse " (which started out as just being a solar system, ha ha..). You had the woman who got "married" to Mal in - 2 episodes or 3? And the really evil accented bad guy who had Mal's ear cut off at least twice -- not that they were bad episodes at all (heh, naked Mal...), just... what, can't come up with interesting new characters in the first season alone? Dollhouse in season one slowly wound up to the point that episodes were totally within the dollhouse, in terms of characters - whatsisname cop's every contact turns out to be a doll, finally even HE winds up with them, and we had an episode there where (forget names here) Boss-Lady had a doll done up special just for her - it's as if the rest of the world doesn't exist - nobody left but us dolls!. (Hey, we paid big money for this silly Dollhouse setpiece and we are going to use it to death!) Did like bringing Wash in, but it kinda says the same thing, we're only dealing with dolls themselves, no actual outside influences. (Influenzas?) I get a somewhat different version of this feeling with most (sci-fi) shows I have checked out on Hulu tho (don't have reg tv) - they seem to need to make more and more story out of less and less real estate - all down to budget constraints? (That last episode of Sarah Connor really blew me away.... definitely would like to have seen it around another season over Dollhouse...)
What the f**k?! I refresh the page and it submits a double post.
Dollhouse is complete s**t compared to TSCC. It is a badly written show and 90% of the time it is painful to watch Dusku's lack of acting chops. I heard Joss sold his Star Trek action Figure Collection and took a claw hammer to his piggy bank to help fund the show, and told Fox he could give them an episode for a case of Ramen and some ring-dings. I still watch Dullhouse, but only because I am extremely tolerant of crappy shows when I am baked off my ass on hash. That, and Summer Glau is going to be on the show for like 10 minutes. I feel bad for Dichen, she is great and she does not deserve to be canceled. So sad.
Knightgee: You are the precise type of person Reason #1 is talking about and you are the reason God gave us the technology to build flamethrowers.
Dollhouse is complete s**t compared to TSCC. It is a badly written show and 90% of the time it is painful to watch Dusku's lack of acting chops. I heard Joss sold his Star Trek action Figure Collection and took a claw hammer to his piggy bank to help fund the show, and told Fox he could give them an episode for a case of Ramen and some ring-dings. I still watch Dullhouse, but only because I am extremely tolerant of crappy shows when I am baked off my ass on hash. That, and Summer Glau is going to be on the show for like 10 minutes. I feel bad for Dichen, she is great and she does not deserve to be canceled. So sad.
is it actually Whedon who doesn't accept responsibility for his less than stellar work (Alien 4, X-men, Dollhouse) or his horde of Whedonistas who believe HE can do no wrong? Would he man up and over a beer say "damn that didn't turn out how I thought it would" or would he pass the blame to everyone else? I dunno. Overall, I love his work, but no one can hit it out of the park every time. And I love "Once More With Feeling" - you can argue all you want about whether it's a "good" musical, but I'll be there this Hallowe'en for another sing-a-long having a great time, and isn't that what it should be judged by?
sc*m, ac*men, talc*m, c*mquat, sc*mbag, cuc*mber, acc*mulate, c*mulous, enc*mber, succ*mb, doc*ments, ec*menical, inc*mbent, acc*mulate, circ*mcise, circ*mvent, c*mbersome, c*mulative, circ*mstances, doc*mentary, this is seriously the dumbest profanity filter ever
"That's because it's also the image of women we get from every other movie or show written by men." Jesus f**king Christ. Do you not get the concept of sexism?
Ramone: To claim that all of television is stupid shows a complete lack of awareness on your part. Some of the most quality storytelling in years is coming out of recent television, in addition to Buffy and other Whedon shows, The Wire and Deadwood were two of the most incredible film creations in history. They are not flukes, they are representative of a huge trend in television that is just undeniable. Concerning all the feminism points (again) - the problem half of you seem to be having is in fact a problem of viewers and not of writing. Yes, chicks with guns are not representative of feminism. However, this is NOT the character that Joss Whedon creates. As I said before, his strongest, best developed characters are both men and women who are not necessarily physically strong, though some are. The problem is that the characters who are reminiscent of "chicks with guns" (River - the ONLY one I have seen) are the most successful. Angel and Firefly are the most successful. Because viewers WANT male leads, and they WANT chicks with guns. People like these concepts better, and then complain that they like it better. Half of the comments on this blog seem to simultaneously criticize Joss for creating women with vulnerabilities (read: REAL PEOPLE) and complain that his strong women are caricatures. Joss Whedon has managed to create extremely complex and realistic characters, both male and female. It is particularly disturbing that whenever a male character is shown to be vulnerable, Whedon is now criticized for replacing feminism with emasculation. Apparently female characters can not show weakness without being written off as whiny girls, and if men show weakness, it is because they were put down by a horrible girl. I find the reactions people have to be disturbing reflections of societal standards. The problem here lies with the audience.
As for your questioning of his feminism, you clearly aren't capable of any kind of analysis. Buffy may have superpowers, but she's been continually pressed to show strength of character as well as physical power. Willow managed to be a strong contributing member despite being a sub-par witch for most of the show's run. Cordelia went from a vapid school girl to one of the most virtuous and strong members of Angel. Fred routinely showed her strength both in mind and in will power. Joyce even managed to show her power as a mother figure despite not even getting as much screen time as other characters. Heck, Willow overcame a freaking addiction, which I can say from personal experience makes her a strong person. The fact that he may have had the girls appear in scanty outfits doesn't change the fact that they were still strong women, it just seems you weren't able to see past those scant outfits, which makes it a personal limitation on your part, not a fault of the way he wrote the characters. And on the note of them being eye candy, Season 1 of Buffy has Xander walking toward the screen, in slow-motion, in a speedo. There are also the numerous shirtless scenes of Spike, Angel, Riley, the occasional male guest star. Dollhouse and Firefly both have many instances of obvious male objectification. Heck, Tahmoh Penikett is sweaty and nearly naked within the first 10 minutes of the first Dollhouse episode, he routinely is found without a shirt, along with other male guest stars and cast members, and the first episode ends with us seeing the back of a naked man. The men on his shows are more routinely paraded around for sexual titillation than the women ever are, but of course you'll ignore this. The sad part is that if Joss Whedon were a women, he'd be given the benefit of the doubt on his feminist cred here and eople would be saying that he's sexualizing the women as a way to empower them, but because he's male, he must obviously just want to stare at their naked bodies and the numerous instances of male objectification can and will be ignored, because some people like to interpret feminism not as equal treatment of the sexes, but as kowtowing completely to one gender's complaints. I understand that the primary goal here was to be funny, but the best humor tends to be the kind that's actually accurate and correct as that's why we laugh at it, which this wasn't, as anyone whose actually dissected any of his shows can tell you that the points used to critique his feminist credibility are weak. Then again, I don't know why I expected actual analysis and accuracy from a cracked article, especially one that can't remain accurate and consistent with it's own title. This list doesn't even have 5 actual points, you had to reiterate one of them twice, but tried to throw in extra emphasis as if it veils the fact that all you did was say the same thing twice using two different examples.
Knightgee, I think I love you.
TSCC was a terrible show. It had it's good moments and the network clearly hoped it would do well, but it didn't. Not Dollhouse's fault. Heck, they had enough faith in TSCC that they thought it's audience could help Dollhouses, but on the nights where they aired together, Dollhosue actually did better. No one watched that show, because it was boring and went nowhere. If I didn't know better, I'd say the whole article was one long fanboy's response to his fave show being cancelled.
Nice article, but is the UBER Battlestar Galactica spoiler necessary? IS IT!?!??!?!?!
wow...and this doesn't even touch on his comic book writing...wow
I wholeheartedly agree about the feminism thing. It's like lauding McG for empowering women with his Charlie's Angels movies.
It's true that Whedon does not produce the best stuff ever. However, what he produces is genuinely original and relatively unique. It's for a niche audience who are constantly pissed because the one person who is making stuff they like is constantly getting interfered with. Everybody proselytizes the shows they like, Whedonites are just more insistent because the shows keep getting canceled.
I was never into anything by Joss Whedon. I had never even heard of him until I saw Firefly, and I never even saw that show until I heard buzz surrounding the DVD. I'm hesitant to pursue any of his other works based on how varied the reviews are. I'm not even vaguely interested in Dollhouse. The thing about Firefly for me is that there were so many elements that worked for that show. The writer may come up with the ideas, the stories, and the dialogue, but actors have to fill those roles and say the lines. People have to build the sets, make the props, design the costumes. If anything doesn't sync, then it reflects on the whole show. Even though Joss wrote the hilarious lines and memorable scenarios, Nathan Fillion had to bring the humanism and sly charm that made Mal so admirable. Adam Baldwin had to portray the right sense of gruff simplicity and even comedic timing for his character to work. There's also the theory that Firefly was so good because everyone involved knew they were only getting one shot. If you're told from virtually the outset that there's not much interest in keeping your show on the air, it's likely you'll pour all of your creative energy into the episodes you're given. I believe that if Firefly had been given a more stable start or was allowed to run a few more seasons, it either wouldn't have come together like it did or the creativity would have started to fizzle.
I was never into anything by Joss Whedon. I had never even heard of him until I saw Firefly, and I never even saw that show until I heard buzz surrounding the DVD. I'm hesitant to pursue any of his other works based on how varied the reviews are. I'm not even vaguely interested in Dollhouse. The thing about Firefly for me is that there were so many elements that worked for that show. The writer may come up with the ideas, the stories, and the dialogue, but actors have to fill those roles and say the lines. People have to build the sets, make the props, design the costumes. If anything doesn't sync, then it reflects on the whole show. Even though Joss wrote the hilarious lines and memorable scenarios, Nathan Fillion had to bring the humanism and sly charm that made Mal so admirable. Adam Baldwin had to portray the right sense of gruff simplicity and even comedic timing for his character to work. There's also the theory that Firefly was so good because everyone involved knew they were only getting one shot. If you're told from virtually the outset that there's not much interest in keeping your show on the air, it's likely you'll pour all of your creative energy into the episodes you're given. I believe that if Firefly had been given a more stable start or was allowed to run a few more seasons, it either wouldn't have come together like it did or the creativity would have started to fizzle.
I'm not a huge Joss Whedon fan, although I have seen just about every one of his shows at one point or another and I like all of what I've seen (that INCLUDES Dollhouse, for all you 'I need to have my tv shows work inside set parameters because if required to imagine something slightly outside of an established genre my 5 nanosecond attention span runs out' kinda people) and I can't really say I find anything other than the first one funny. Poking fun at the lack of development in most of the Dollhouse characters is silly because, and listen carefully children in case you missed this plot point: THEY DON'T HAVE PERSONALITIES. I'm not saying that all the actors on the show are complete gems (because they all aren't) but I find the show interesting and the story-lines, though twistier than a Six Flags rollercoaster, are definitely worth following. I might find things funnier if you weren't insulting my intelligence or ability to recognize good stories simply by the fact that I like to be entertained. Not all Whedon fans are obsessed nerds who's rooms are knee-deep in pizza boxes and Buffy comic books. I'm aware that not all of what Whedon does is somehow going to alter the face of television as we know it, but that doesn't mean I don't find it entertaining none-the-less. You're like those pissy movie critics who go to see a summer bang-up and complain about it's lack of depth and character development. Please. If you don't like hearing Whedon fans whine then stop bringing it up or find some people to have an actual intelligent debate with.
Rule #1 of internet fandoms: "The fans of anything I don't like are always much louder and more obnoxious than the fans of anything I do like." In other news, "If a female character is ever shown as being weak, under any circ*mstances (even at times when no male character could appear strong without being accused of being a Marty Stu), it's ZOMG ANTI-FEMINIST!!!1!"
I love Joss Whedon and consider myself a total Whedon fan. I like Dollhouse, and I've liked most his other stuff, too. (Oddly enough, I'm not a huge Firefly/Serenity fan. I just don't love the premise or feel of the show, but I think it was very well done.) But with all this Whedon love, I am not empty-headed enough to think his s**t doesn't stink. He's not perfect, has made some terrible (in my opinion) storytelling mistakes, and has had some lame episodes of otherwise great shows. Don't totally agree about the anti-feminist stuff, but point taken. However, I must disagree about your statement that "Once More with Feeling" is not "Rocky Horror." I am a huge fan of musicals. All kinds, from Fred & Ginger movie musicals to Sondheim and everything in between. (but, generally speaking, not jukebox musicals) So, I've seen other musicals and I am very familiar with the genre and I think "Once More" is right there with "Rocky Horror." Is "Once More" a good musical? no. Neither is Rocky Horror. But they are AWESOME when you dress up and act out the parts, embracing the camp. They aren't masterpieces like something with a Bernstein score. But they are fun, and have funny and bizarre characters. A simple pleasure.
This article is great. Pretty much spot on, although you missed the fact that his plots tend to have really weak, rushed endings (like he realised at the last minute that there was only one episode left in the season and he had to hurry up and resolve the plot). And yeah, T:TSCC was awesome. I'm still really disappointed it's gone. I really wanted to see where it was heading, because the ending to the last episode was amazing. :-(
I too love Firefly and Angel, but you make a lot of good points. I disagree somewhat with the feminist one only because there seems to be this strange standard where if a woman is EVER shown as being weak at ANY time, it's anti-feminist. This is what turns a lot of female comic characters into 2D "men with breasts." It's ok for a female character to have weaknesses, just like it's ok for a male to, but in the end I think he lands on the side of strong females. Bang-up article though! Very well put and very well researched!
Whedon killed/maimed Toad, which automatically makes him a bad guy in my book.
WHEDONWHEDONWHEDONWHEDONFIREFLYISBETTERTHANJESUSHURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR Joss Whedon? I think you neckbeards give him too much credit, but I guess he is fine in small doses, like most stupid f**king television. Read: all television.
This was perfect, Bobbo--well done, on point and f**king hilarious.
Doh! sorry about the double post.
Am I the only one who thinks Summer Glau is the kiss of death for a series? "Firefly", "The 4400", "Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles": .... sheesh! Luckily she didn't kill "The Unit".... oh wait...
Am I the only one who thinks Summer Glau is the kiss of death for a series? "Firefly", "The 4400", "Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles": .... sheesh! Luckily she didn't kill "The Unit".... oh wait...
what a shocker, a swath of essay long comments down here.
It's been happening to me all night SittingDuck ;)
Bobby Roberts - you talk so much s**t in the article I think I can grow roses in my eyes now. Here's a tip - if you reference White Men Can't Jump for anything, you're doing it wrong.
Hmm. I think some of you are confusing strong female characters with strong females. Like, literally strong. With muscles and stuff. The strength in his characters is much more about strength of character and heart and mind. Which is why Fred, who is even one of the meeker characters on the show, is one of the most pivotal. I believe Joss Whedon uses physical strength as a symbol, or a metaphor, and also is just a nerd who likes comic books, so that is how it manifests. But in defense of the Buffy argument below, what about the episode where he took away all of her powers on her 18th birthday and we watched as she defiantly battled anyways, outsmarting the bad guy in the end? As for the other characters you mentioned, Willow has always been a little weak to me after season 3. River stands alone with or without the fighting ability, she is just an interesting girl. Cordelia was a wonderful character UNTIL she got super powers. She didn't need them, the storyline was dumped on her after the actor who played Doyle was kicked off the show for (and ultimately died from) excessive drug usage. I believe the storyline ruined Cordelia and they had no choice but to kill her off. I want to mention Kaylee, Anya and Adele again. Kaylee has got a strong personality and a strong ethic with no super powers or fighting ability. Anya does have superpowers, but they are rarely relevant to her plot line. In fact, her character is more about the complex issues of an immigrant between two worlds. Adele is a very headstrong woman who is smart, capable and independent. I adore her character. I love the exploration of her sometimes cold attitude juxtaposed by her more lonely moments.
I'm not a hardcore Whedon fan besides Firefly and his run on Astonishing X-Men (hurray for writers actually not butchering Cyclops for once). But I can't really say s**t about him, because Firefly was the best f**king show on network television (unless you count South Park before it got all preachy). When he killed someone off, it MEANT something. Wash's death in Serenity was enough to unbalance you for the rest of the film. Who else was going to die now that they'd killed off one of the fan favorites? I seriously thought there were going to be more casualties. And Book dying beforehand also was done very well. I will admit, though, that a lot of hardcore Whedonites scare me. But I will say this: they aren't nearly as creepy as your average animu fan.
I'm a Whedon fan, but I cannot argue against facts, only call the person who said them a meanie-head. I will say this about the deaths of Joss's beloved characters. At least when he does it, they mean something. As far as the female empowerment thing. I have a question, why is it whenever Joss wants to empower women, he always does it under unrealistic circ*mstances? He gives these otherwise regular women powers (Willow, Buffy, River, Fred, and even Cordelia) that they wouldn't be worth s**t without. Joss even proved it in an episode of Buffy when she was being given muscle relaxants on the sly by Giles and when she tried to stop, not even a vampire, but a jock getting out of hand, she was tossed aside like yesterday's garbage. Yay! Go empowerment Okay, I'm sorry, but giving supernatural powers to otherwise girls that would be victims, I'm not seeing the empowerment there. Maybe I'm wrong. Only empowered female I saw was Zoe. Zoe was smart (wore bullet-proof vest into battle), whooped some ass (w/out powers), got s**t done (negotiated with Niska), and made do with what she had. The two runner-ups to Zoe are Willow and Fred before their respective magical transformations. Both fell into the sidekick role, but they were useful sidekicks. Exceedingly smart, hard working, and willing to get dirty (despite usually being severely overmatched). You've probably noticed I haven't said much about Dollhouse, well, that's because I'm not a fan. I've seen two episodes, and I lost interest.
I'm with you on most of your points. : ) As a casual Whedonite (i.e. liking the man's work), I am trying my darndest to like Dollhouse, but it's like I'm doing a chore watching it. Whedon is best when he's working within an already-established genre: horror (Buffy), space-punk (Firefly), detective (Angel), superheroes (Dr. Horrible). Dollhouse has to work too hard to create its own universe and genre, and it just doesn't work. As for "Once More with Feeling".... it may not be the best musical in the universe, but it's still a good musical. It has fun music, solid story-telling, and good dance numbers. It's cleverly written and pokes fun at itself enough to not be taken too seriously. (And, yes, I have watched other musicals. Many musicals.)
My girlfriend and best friend are massive Whedon fans, and I have never been able to understand that fact. Never. Everything written in this article are things I've espoused to them over the last ten years and I'm ecstatic to actually have others say the same things independently. As far as feminism and strong women go, I've never been able to see it in his writing, probably because I was raised with such strong female characters as James Cameron's Sarah Connor (Linda Hamilton, not this new woman), Ridley Scott's Ripley (Sigourney Weaver, not Dan O'Bannon's original male version), and Wes Craven's Nancy Thompson. Joss Whedon's harem don't even factor in as strong women in that company. But as the article stated, most Whedon fans have never even seen anything other than Mutant Enemy stuff, so there's nothing for them to compare to (My GF and BF are getting the lessons they should have gotten as kids from me!). In conclusion, please, please, please slag off Joss Whedon some more! It made my day!
My girlfriend and best friend are massive Whedon fans, and I have never been able to understand that fact. Never. Everything written in this article are things I've espoused to them over the last ten years and I'm ecstatic to actually have others say the same things independently. As far as feminism and strong women go, I've never been able to see it in his writing, probably because I was raised with such strong female characters as James Cameron's Sarah Connor (Linda Hamilton, not this new woman), Ridley Scott's Ripley (Sigourney Weaver, not Dan O'Bannon's original male version), and Wes Craven's Nancy Thompson. Joss Whedon's harem don't even factor in as strong women in that company. But as the article stated, most Whedon fans have never even seen anything other than Mutant Enemy stuff, so there's nothing for them to compare to (My GF and BF are getting the lessons they should have gotten as kids from me!). In conclusion, please, please, please slag off Joss Whedon some more! It made my day!
Anya is a Russian name, and I have Russian heritage, so I was happy about that. However, I name animals after things I like or people I like all the time, it's a good way to honor the character and the dog! Plus my dog realllly likes money and selects her words a shade too literally. Eh? Anyone? Alright whatever. 30RockDay: River is a hot chick with a gun, so are Zoe and Echo, but the strongest female characters I have seen him write are Buffy, Anya, Fred, Kaylee and Adele. Oh and thanks Bobbi :)
Yeeeeaaaahhhh... That last image made me wanna commit suicide. I think he's being rather unforgiving regarding books written about a franchise. I believe that if a universe has a diverse enough background and has plenty of interesting things to write about, like Warhammer 40k, it's totally possible to write good stories about it.
Anya is a Russian name, and I have Russian heritage, so I was happy about that. However, I name animals after things I like or people I like all the time, it's a good way to honor the character and the dog! Plus my dog realllly likes money and selects her words a shade too literally. Eh? Anyone? Alright whatever. 30RockDay: River is a hot chick with a gun, so are Zoe and Echo, but the strongest female characters I have seen him write are Buffy, Anya, Fred, Kaylee and Adele. Oh and thanks Bobbi :)
I really gotta say, for an article about someone who's work I don't much care for, this was really, really funny. The Alien Resurrection tirade was pure gold. And the fanboy description? perfect. Ever since I was forced to endure sitting through the movie "Fanboys" I have been blood-thirsty for uber geeks
Anya is a Russian name, and I have Russian heritage, so I was happy about that. However, I name animals after things I like or people I like all the time, it's a good way to honor the character and the dog! Plus my dog realllly likes money and selects her words a shade too literally. Eh? Anyone? Alright whatever. 30RockDay: River is a hot chick with a gun, so are Zoe and Echo, but the strongest female characters I have seen him write are Buffy, Anya, Fred, Kaylee and Adele. Oh and thanks Bobbi :)
Anya is a Russian name, and I have Russian heritage, so I was happy about that. However, I name animals after things I like or people I like all the time, it's a good way to honor the character and the dog! Plus my dog realllly likes money and selects her words a shade too literally. Eh? Anyone? Alright whatever. 30RockDay: River is a hot chick with a gun, so are Zoe and Echo, but the strongest female characters I have seen him write are Buffy, Anya, Fred, Kaylee and Adele. Oh and thanks Bobbi :)
Just a quick point: according to IMDB, Whedon had nothing to do with the X-Men movies. He DID write the first 24 issues of Astonishing X-Men, with serious delays in production due to to Whedon, and a few serious problems, which Whedon has owned up to. And some say that he was obviously pulling a Chris Claremont rip-off, though I disagree (it had homages to Claremont, like EVERY X-Men writer does).
OK I just really have to say it, I listen to the Cort and Fatboy podcast everyday, I’ve been a fan since the Katee Sackhoff interviews, and the “cloned meat” song from one of the shows was my ringtone for a while, but lately Fatboy just seems to just hate fanboys for just about everything, and I really mean hate, you can hear it in his voice and feel it in the way he writes, don’t get me wrong, he is mostly right about all the stuff he criticizes, and as much as I enjoy “Dollhouse” (and all the various Whedon projects) there is no way in hell that Fox can be blamed if the show gets cancelled (although I would really like the show to last enough to see Ilona Costa Bianchi as the head of the italian Dollhouse), I get that Joss Whedon has made his bad writing decisions before and the female empowerment thing is just an excuse for “hot chicks with guns” or stakes whatever, I get it, but really, lately Fatboy Roberts just sounds so condescending and douchy (douche-bagish?) to use one of his favorite words. If for some strange reason you’re reading this Fatboy, I’m a big fan, but really just dial it down a bit, why so serious? You’re starting to sound like Bill Maher lately, not the fun smartass Bill Maher (I really don’t know if there really was one before) but the weird “get off my lawn” of comedy he is now. So to sum up, big fan, love the show, cloned meat ringtone, love reading you on cracked now, not trying to be rude but really just dial it down, and the gypsies are filthy people and we shall speak of them no more.
Firefly is lame and it's a rip-off of Lexx. Lexx is far superior.
Haha I love joss whedon but i have to admit this is pretty accurate. And anya isn't a bad name
I like the guy's shows too, but with a list of reservations that the above only begins to touch on. As such, I was all ready to hate this article -- but after I held my nose to get past No. 5, it got better fast. I think Whedon deliberately plays to his psycho evangelist cat-lady fan base. Every time he screws up in Hollywood, he goes crying to them about the mean bullies who demand he turn a profit. And then they get all maternal and pervy. "Those horrid, horrid men at Fox!" the cat ladies cry, "Joss just needed to take his time with Firefly's ham-fisted premise -- and to grease it with plenty of money -- and then he could have slowly worked it deep into the public area of citizen's privates ... private citizens. Minds. I'll be in my boudoir."
your analogies make me giggle like a twitter-pated schoolgirl
Yeah! Right on, Fatboy! Put Joss in his place.
http://www.examiner.com/x-9276-Philadelphia-Gaming-Lifestyle-Examiner~y2009m5d28-New-Buffy-movie-Sure-I-can-say-things-about-it-that-geeks-dont-want-to-hear Here's a little bit I jotted in similar vein earlier this year.
Well. Anya isn't a horrible name for a dog-- if you named it that because it's an actual name. If you named your dog, or cat, or whatever animal after a character, though... well. I can appreciate wanting to be reminded of a character you like, but that animal better warrant it. If your parrot already screams "Wingardium Leviosa!" and has a blotch on its head, then yeah, go ahead, name it Harry or something, but otherwise... just don't. Anya is a Russian female's name, a condensed form of Anastasia but also a name by itself, so that's fine.
Tractor - I hear what you're saying, but I think that was much more about the development of Spike's character than anything else. In fact, I appreciated the momentum for that character, as some could argue (they would be wrong, but they could argue), that Whedon might be so invested in his female characters that he allows the male ones to fall flat. Spike was at risk for that and by renewing his character like that, they showed that this is indeed a show about people, and not about "power" as that season asserts. Josswhedonsux - That was an incredibly hate filled, venomous post that is reflective of what is wrong with society. Please consider that the things you say are hurtful to people. Just because the internet allows people to hide and fosters a community of bullying does not mean you have to be part of it. Please join those around you in trying to treat people decently. I hope the website does not post this 4 times, but I apologize for the inconvenience if it does.
Imagine how much it would suck to actually care about this s**t :D
Tractor - I hear what you're saying, but I think that was much more about the development of Spike's character than anything else. In fact, I appreciated the momentum for that character, as some could argue (they would be wrong, but they could argue), that Whedon might be so invested in his female characters that he allows the male ones to fall flat. Spike was at risk for that and by renewing his character like that, they showed that this is indeed a show about people, and not about "power" as that season asserts. Josswhedonsux - That was an incredibly hate filled, venomous post that is reflective of what is wrong with society. Please consider that the things you say are hurtful to people. Just because the internet allows people to hide and fosters a community of bullying does not mean you have to be part of it. Please join those around you in trying to treat people decently. I hope the website does not post this 4 times, but I apologize for the inconvenience if it does.
eh. he still can (or at least has) writen better s**t than 90% of the other Crap on television. Angel was interesting as it definitely got better as it went along, culminating in the 5th season where there were only one or two meh episodes. Firefly. well, everything i could say about firefly has already been said. at least twenty times. IN ALL CAPS. He has some great potental, and has brought us some damn fine entertainment. Dr. Horrible's sing along blog had to end that way, because Dr. Horrible had to actually become a villain. a sad ending, but enevitable. and anyhow, she only Died... i mean, is that REALLY gonna stop the story for sure? its not like Death cannot be overcome... With Science!!!
ActiveDoll - I have struggled with making sense of Anya's death since 2002 (or 3? When did that season air?), I originally thought it was a meaningless death of my 2nd favorite character (my dog is named after her!), but upon rewatching (for the 9th time now), I have noticed SO MUCH foreshadowing of her death. The earliest allusion to it I can remember is in the episode Selfless, 17 episodes before her death. There is also a great deal of symbolism and allegory leading up to her death, including the use of shadows around her character for several preceding episodes, and of the irony built up between her character and Andrew's... remember all of the times Andrew was told he would be the one to die? By Anya? And after the culminating fight in which Anya died fighting alongside Andrew, perhaps even defending him, Andrew asked the question "Why am I alive?" I am unsure of the relevancy of her death, but it seems clear to me that it was very planned and very significant.
This is the most true thing I have read about Joss Whedon on the internet (aside maybe from Angel and Firefly being the best shows of the past fifteen years but then I sorta think Dexter is made of a combination of awesomeness and Michael C. Hall, which is likely an avatar of aweseomeness begat unto us by a benevolent TV network). Seriously I am so tired of Whedon fans blaming 'the director' for Alien: Resurrection. He has a f**king name, he's Jean f**king Pierre doubel-f**king Jeunet, do Delicatessen, City of the Lost Children and Amelie mean nothing to you f**king Americans? Sure I'm not saying he doesn't shoulder part of the burden but come on! Whedon is no immaculate saint here passing through hellfire of some stupid French director's vision.
Wow, and no mention of the Buffy series finale when total female empowerment of all the slayers culminates to Spike standing in one spot and killing everything around him.
litost - I have no idege a what you are talking about but because you posted the same message 4 times in thirty minutes i hope that it was i particularly horrible onscreen death that made you cry like a little girl. Also anya is a s**tty name for a dog and i am willing to bet money that that dog hates you.
litost I totally agree. I think seasons 5 and 7 particularly had very clearly defined endings, you just only saw the signs afterwards (trolls hammer being one of the more obvious ones - but also Giles, Buffybot). Anya was one of those characters that really grew on me, and really I should have seen it after her awesome I like people speech while wheelchair racing with Andrew. It's still one of those things that when i catch on tv I have to watch it! Thought provoking...for the tv addicted!
ActiveDoll - I have struggled with making sense of Anya's death since 2002 (or 3? When did that season air?), I originally thought it was a meaningless death of my 2nd favorite character (my dog is named after her!), but upon rewatching (for the 9th time now), I have noticed SO MUCH foreshadowing of her death. The earliest allusion to it I can remember is in the episode Selfless, 17 episodes before her death. There is also a great deal of symbolism and allegory leading up to her death, including the use of shadows around her character for several preceding episodes, and of the irony built up between her character and Andrew's... remember all of the times Andrew was told he would be the one to die? By Anya? And after the culminating fight in which Anya died fighting alongside Andrew, perhaps even defending him, Andrew asked the question "Why am I alive?" I am unsure of the relevancy of her death, but it seems clear to me that it was very planned and very significant.
@dissolve, seriously? its been out for like a year now. Go watch it. Otherwise you are just a f**ktard for complaining that Bobby spoiled it. Thats like someone complaining when i say that Rosebud was the sled. or that Bruce Willis is actually dead. Or that Vader is actually Luke's father. To keep myself from ranting like many other people here Ill just say (in the way that Joss Whedon would) Fuck you and everyone you hold dear.
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ActiveDoll - I have struggled with making sense of Anya's death since 2002 (or 3? When did that season air?), I originally thought it was a meaningless death of my 2nd favorite character (my dog is named after her!), but upon rewatching (for the 9th time now), I have noticed SO MUCH foreshadowing of her death. The earliest allusion to it I can remember is in the episode Selfless, 17 episodes before her death. There is also a great deal of symbolism and allegory leading up to her death, including the use of shadows around her character for several preceding episodes, and of the irony built up between her character and Andrew's... remember all of the times Andrew was told he would be the one to die? By Anya? And after the culminating fight in which Anya died fighting alongside Andrew, perhaps even defending him, Andrew asked the question "Why am I alive?" I am unsure of the relevancy of her death, but it seems clear to me that it was very planned and very significant.
ActiveDoll - I have struggled with making sense of Anya's death since 2002 (or 3? When did that season air?), I originally thought it was a meaningless death of my 2nd favorite character (my dog is named after her!), but upon rewatching (for the 9th time now), I have noticed SO MUCH foreshadowing of her death. The earliest allusion to it I can remember is in the episode Selfless, 17 episodes before her death. There is also a great deal of symbolism and allegory leading up to her death, including the use of shadows around her character for several preceding episodes, and of the irony built up between her character and Andrew's... remember all of the times Andrew was told he would be the one to die? By Anya? And after the culminating fight in which Anya died fighting alongside Andrew, perhaps even defending him, Andrew asked the question "Why am I alive?" I am unsure of the relevancy of her death, but it seems clear to me that it was very planned and very significant.
Aren't fans always the worst part? I love The Smiths but I detest their fans.
ActiveDoll - I have struggled with making sense of Anya's death since 2002 (or 3? When did that season air?), I originally thought it was a meaningless death of my 2nd favorite character (my dog is named after her!), but upon rewatching (for the 9th time now), I have noticed SO MUCH foreshadowing of her death. The earliest allusion to it I can remember is in the episode Selfless, 17 episodes before her death. There is also a great deal of symbolism and allegory leading up to her death, including the use of shadows around her character for several preceding episodes, and of the irony built up between her character and Andrew's... remember all of the times Andrew was told he would be the one to die? By Anya? And after the culminating fight in which Anya died fighting alongside Andrew, perhaps even defending him, Andrew asked the question "Why am I alive?" I am unsure of the relevancy of her death, but it seems clear to me that it was very planned and very significant.
I haven't watched Dr. Horrible's Sing-A-Long Blog yet. Thanks for ruining the ending, Jerk.
Sorry, I never was a fan of Joss Wehdon's work. Except Firefly and Serentity, which I thought were great. But that's it. And there's nothing you can do or say to convince me that cancelling Terminator: The Sarah Conner Chronicles in favor of Dollhouse was a good move. There, I said it.
ActiveDoll - I have struggled with making sense of Anya's death since 2002 (or 3? When did that season air?), I originally thought it was a meaningless death of my 2nd favorite character (my dog is named after her!), but upon rewatching (for the 9th time now), I have noticed SO MUCH foreshadowing of her death. The earliest allusion to it I can remember is in the episode Selfless, 17 episodes before her death. There is also a great deal of symbolism and allegory leading up to her death, including the use of shadows around her character for several preceding episodes, and of the irony built up between her character and Andrew's... remember all of the times Andrew was told he would be the one to die? By Anya? And after the culminating fight in which Anya died fighting alongside Andrew, perhaps even defending him, Andrew asked the question "Why am I alive?" I am unsure of the relevancy of her death, but it seems clear to me that it was very planned and very significant.
joss whedon is pretty excellent. except for dollhouse, and alien. and he's a bit of a douche, but the guy can write amazing dialogue, which is half the battle.
Mothermagna - I could talk with you for hours on why Xander is still alive! I personally think he is the most intricate, interesting and subtle character Joss Whedon has ever written. I think he is one of, if not THE most important character on the show.
My biggest problem with Dollhouse is that the entire premise is ripped from the backstory of Molly from Gibson's Neuromancer. That, and the awful, awful acting.
@Iris Sorry, should have been more precise. I don't really adhere to any -isms. And in my comment, I didn't make any judgement calls re feminists, stereotypical or otherwise. I still don't think that relying on others in any way compromises being an otherwise strong or independent person. I love Xander - particularly the season 8 version. Killing Anya was another death-to-make-you-go-why death, though it happened late in the day. Love Dollhouse, think it has real potential if it continues to move from 'imprint of the week' to more mythology based stories.
Mothermagna - I could talk with you for hours on why Xander is still alive! I personally think he is the most intricate, interesting and subtle character Joss Whedon has ever written. I think he is one of, if not THE most important character on the show.
This is what I mean - I have never encountered hostility from a Whedon fan. Toward people who don't like Whedon. I don't understand the hostility toward us. Also, I love Firefly, I think it is an incredible show, but I do feel like some of the success it has received over the other shows is attributable to it's spoon feeding of what audiences want. Explosions! Dudes with guns! Hot chicks w/ assassin triggers! It worries me that people appear to prefer their television when it's not all mixed up in gender issues and political commentary. I see the value in shows that are just fun, but I worry that is the only reason why people like it better. They don't have to think as hard (to the author of this post - I am confident that you like the show for the right reasons, this is not an attack on you).
I'd just like to say nuh-uh. Especially when it comes to once more with feeling. Is it a good musical? No. Is Rocky Horror Picture Show? No. Do they both have their moments? Of course, that's why people like them. And Joss has done his fair share to wreck Dollhouse. Allowing Miss Doucheku any modic*m of creative control is a shining example. But FOX has had their part, too. And sure, his feminism comes on a little thick. He's no Alan Moore. But I feel a sincerity behind his female characters. They're not sniveling, whining, shrewish gold diggers (let's forget Echo for a moment.) They act like people, and they have their dramatic break downs like dramatic characters do. Angel threw more hissy fits and temper tantrums than Buffy and Cordelia combined. Also, I've always rather liked the tension he creates by informing you in no uncertain terms that your beloved characters could die any time. When Gunn's debt is recalled by a demon mobster, you don't know that he won't lose his soul. When an evil priest has Zander by the neck and shoves his thumb into his eye, you worry, because it's Zander, and why is he still alive anyway? Also, Han Solo Batman fighting vampires in LA? Oh hell yes.
This is what I mean - I have never encountered hostility from a Whedon fan. Toward people who don't like Whedon. I don't understand the hostility toward us. Also, I love Firefly, I think it is an incredible show, but I do feel like some of the success it has received over the other shows is attributable to it's spoon feeding of what audiences want. Explosions! Dudes with guns! Hot chicks w/ assassin triggers! It worries me that people appear to prefer their television when it's not all mixed up in gender issues and political commentary. I see the value in shows that are just fun, but I worry that is the only reason why people like it better. They don't have to think as hard (to the author of this post - I am confident that you like the show for the right reasons, this is not an attack on you).
"Trekkies ate s**t for about 30 straight years and online discussions of your favorite shows are clogged with "Shippers," who disregard anything interesting and insightful about a show, and focus solely on badly-written fanfic fantasies for frantic bean-flicking, their stories swapped between shawl-wearing, cat-owning knitting enthusiasts squeeling until their lungs burst on LiveJournal." Oh My God, this is me to a T. GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!!!!!
I love all the comments about how Whedon fans are arrogant a*****es, since I have yet to see a single comment from an actual Whedon fan that even comes close to the level of vitriolic nerd-rage that's spewing forth from the Whedon detractors here.
I don't think it's non-feminist either Clytamnestra :) I think Kaylee in particular shows Whedon's approach to female characters.
Haha you guys argue a lot. I haven't even read the whole article yet, I just wanted to say that I "grr argh" with the credits too and it's totally the best part =]
Regarding the feminism point, all I know is watching Buffy, Angel and Firefly never made me feel bad about being a girl, like every other tv show EVAR has tried to do. Great article :D
Mostly I agree with you (especially point #5. GOD THAT IS SO OBNOXIOUS. I'm glad "Firefly" got cancelled before he could kill even more great characters, and I hope it's the same with "Dollhouse"). But I've been a musical enthusiast since birth and I still think "Once More With Feeling" is damn good entertainment. Also I think the only really damning problem with "Dollhouse" is Dushku. The show would be great if someone who could act played Echo.
You Hit it right on the nose! Joss sucks and his fans are complete doucheBags with no Life and no sense of good movies, that doesn't have joss's name on it!. You suck, Joss!!
I thought that Bucholz's article about which site has the stupidest commenters (which called Digg users "ass-necks") was Cracked's most egregious assault on its readership, but this may have topped it. I look forward to future articles like "7 Reasons List-Based Humor Sites Are for Retards" and "10 Reasons Cracked.com Readers are Stupid Assholes."
It's strange, I've never encountered a hardcore whedon fan. Most everybody I know thought Firefly was an excellent show, and almost nobody I know gives a damn about anything else he ever made. While at one point I was active in trying to resurrect Firefly, and would to this day pay to see more, I can't consider myself a fan because that's the only thing he made that I was into. To this day I think Firefly was the best sci-fi show ever made, mostly because it's the only sci-fi show I can watch with my girlfriend, parents, or any other non-nerd and reasonably expect them to enjoy it.
I love Whedon's good stuff, which is rare. By good stuff, I mean Firefly. Buffy and Dollhouse are terrible. Feminists should feel free to make their own Sci Fi (not SyFy) show that only they watch. Realize that most Sci Fi films aren't for you. They are not aimed at women, and you don't have to like them. Watch something else, rather than expect someone to change their movie to make you happy.
this article is sooo right on. I still can't believe they canceled the Lena Headey--I mean Sarah Connor--Chronicles, but I'm going to agree with BobbyD84. I don't give a monkey's ass about the plot of Dollhouse. Eliza Dushku is effing hot, and that is all that matters.
#1 thing bad about being a joss whedon fan? You are a fan of someone who uses the word "whedonverse".
I like Firefly and I like Summer Glau. Joss Whedon gave me a really good TV show and one of my favorite actresses, but other than that I don't really care for his other stuff. He has ensnared me into Dollhouse for the next few weeks though. Having Summer Glau on that is a very small consolation for loosing Sarah Connor Chronicles, but it does not make up for Dollhouse being renewed at the expense of Terminator.
i DVR dollhouse faithfully....eliza dushku is hot. the plot of the show is of no interest to me. the fact that eliza dushku is hot is enough for me. i've never watched any other joss whedon shows, nor do i care to. unless they contain eliza dushku, who is hot. god damn she's hot. did i mention eliza dushku being hot? because she is....she's hot.
Regarding the feminism point, all I know is watching Buffy, Angel and Firefly never made me feel bad about being a girl, like every other tv show EVAR has tried to do. Great article :D
@activedoll: You're not a feminist? So you're saying that women deserve to be second-class citizens and have fewer rights than men? So many people have the wrong idea about feminism. Please read this. http://tammy212.livejournal.com/36842.html And if you don't get idea from reading that: Being a feminist does NOT make you a lesbian man-hater who thinks women are superior. It means you desire equality for both women and men. We're talking about egalitarianism here.
God Bless you, good sir. I f**king hate Whedon's fans. They are like a cross between Scientologists and Soap Opera Digest readers.
PS. I would call Whedon a feminist writer in so far as he writes women as if they were just like people. He might put them in somewhat gratuitously nude situations with a slightly alarming frequency, and there's no defense for that, but as characters they ring true. And yes, saying "Women are just like people" may seem like a weaksauce feminist statement, but you know, baby steps.
ok, id like to say, i love joss whedon. worship, actually. even though i love him, i do see a lot of the points your making (buffy did run to angel and spike a lot, he never accepts blame, and i dont think anyone can argue that you should never love any of his characters, cuz he kills the best ones) except for the thing about the fans. i mean, ive met star wars fans that think you an idiot and beneath them if you dont worship it just like they do, and ive met twilighters that make you wanna kill youself, but ive never met a whedon fan like the one your talking about. i dont think a fan should consist of anything other than someone who watches and enjoys his stuff. i mean, i could obbsess over it if i want, but thats just who i am (i obbsess over a lot of other stuff, too). if you met one horrible whedon fan, dont let him or her ruin your whole perspective of whedon fans (espeacilly since you claim to be one yourself)
Boy, rov730, you sure did a coles notes skim of that article if you think those responses are justified. That, or you are just one dumb sunnuvabi*ch.
Regarding the feminism point, all I know is watching Buffy, Angel and Firefly never made me feel bad about being a girl, like every other tv show EVAR has tried to do. Great article :D
The last bit about hardcore fans was absolute poetry. I'm not a Whedon fan. I don't watch his shows, I don't talk to his fans, but I run into exactly those kinds of people wherever there's a discussion about any comic book or video game franchise.
Re. norcross: "What you're basically saying is that, in order to enjoy Whedon's latest laurel-resting crapfest, you have to actually be mentally deficient in some profound way." No, what I'm basically saying is that I don't recognize Echo in her different personalities very easily. It's not like that helps me enjoy the show, it's just confusing. Anyway it was an observation, not an instruction.
And the fact that you generalize all his fans is just disgusting
I think all of your comments are ignorant and ill-concieved cause your the a*****e who cries cause that sorry excuse for a TV show Terminator bombed and a deeper more over your head show has appeared that is like all of Whedon's work ahead of your time. What makes him brilliant is what he said on Buffy season six commentary: "I give my fans what they need not what they want."
I think all of your comments are ignorant and ill-concieved cause your the a*****e who cries cause that sorry excuse for a TV show Terminator bombed and a deeper more over your head show has appeared that is like all of Whedon's work ahead of your time. What makes him brilliant is what he said on Buffy season six commentary: "I give my fans what they need not what they want."
Joss Whedon= the poor man's L. Ron Hubbard. I maybe just don't like the names Joss or Whedon. Whatever, live long and prosperous.
I broke up with my first boyfriend because he was a retarded Wheaton uber-fan. I love Star Trek, my ex refused to watch it, but he made fun of the show constantly--and I was ok with that, because Star Trek is just a TV show. HOWEVER, if I made just one tiny criticism about Battlestar Galactica, his most favourite show, he would flip out and throw a tantrum.
i also like that whedon has the nerve to kill of main characters, and not in the soap-way of killing them of and resurrecting them the next week (or some clone, or twin brother or some such). way better than average startrek were you knew the red-shirt is toast, but kirk will be saved before the ep. is over.
@GTJ-It could be a number of sound effects, depending on your sexual twist-o-meter. I attribute that Pssss noise to the sound of a gentleman such as myself pulling a tremendous dick out of Summer Glau, and showering her beautiful hair with asparagus-scented urine (Preferably without her permission to do so, as it adds to the kink factor). Presumably during mid-butt-pounding while she does the splits in the hallway when she made her daring escape in Serenity. But there has been a many occasion where I simply ran out of nut, and and my penis deflated like a chinese tire on a chinese vehicle. It was always done with intention though, and by putting a little baby powder in the tip I can sell the illusion that it produced a puff of smoke instead of semen. I know, it's sick, right? But you asked, so there you have it. I piss when I f**k.
I have to be honest and say I have never been a fan of this man. An example of why....I watched Firefly when the first episode premiered. About five or ten minutes in.....the first thought to occur to me....was that I wanted to see each and every character die in the most horrible, screaming, Syphilis soaked death that is utterly possible! To me they seemed nothing more then every conceivable version of "Mary Sue" that can be created. I was also surprised I didn't see the words "Summer's Eve" scribbled onto the backs of most of the characters.......as in...total douches. Never have I seen someone cater to, and practically diaper, their characters, then in this case. Every time, the villain of the moment is at first vicious, badass, and could face off with any opponent sent his way.....then introduce the third shelf in the FP aisle (ie main characters)....and all of a sudden, the once badass villain cant seem to hold his gun straight! What happened??? Its like in the movie "Deathproof".....the 'Stuntman' played by Kurt Russell, starts out as one hell of an evil, cunning, hardcore lethal badguy......then, within the span of one scene change......total p***y. What??? Come on.....lets just be honest.....the man is getting his rocks off as he watches his own shows while saying.."That's me! That's me! Im...so...bad...ass!!!" But that's just my opinion....I could be wrong.
I have to be honest and say I have never been a fan of this man. An example of why....I watched Firefly when the first episode premiered. About five or ten minutes in.....the first thought to occur to me....was that I wanted to see each and every character die in the most horrible, screaming, Syphilis soaked death that is utterly possible! To me they seemed nothing more then every conceivable version of "Mary Sue" that can be created. I was also surprised I didn't see the words "Summer's Eve" scribbled onto the backs of most of the characters.......as in...total douches. Never have I seen someone cater to, and practically diaper, their characters, then in this case. Every time, the villain of the moment is at first vicious, badass, and could face off with any opponent sent his way.....then introduce the third shelf in the FP aisle (ie main characters)....and all of a sudden, the once badass villain cant seem to hold his gun straight! What happened??? Its like in the movie "Deathproof".....the 'Stuntman' played by Kurt Russell, starts out as one hell of an evil, cunning, hardcore lethal badguy......then, within the span of one scene change......total p***y. What??? Come on.....lets just be honest.....the man is getting his rocks off as he watches his own shows while saying.."That's me! That's me! Im...so...bad...ass!!!" But that's just my opinion....I could be wrong.
I don't think it's non-feminist either Clytamnestra :) I think Kaylee in particular shows Whedon's approach to female characters.
Also Bob - I see what you are saying about "this is what Lost fans say as well," but I wouldn't call Lost fans basement dwellers either, I think the Lost crowd IS a little older and a little pickier (though what they pick is questionable :) ). Don't know about Harry Potter though, those fans seem to run the gamut pretty evenly.
hm, being a woman, i never thought firefly was that non-feminist. unless a show is only 'feminist' if it's female characters are all merciless killing-machines, never showing any vulnerability. the females didn't have those typical 'female' professions either, like deanna troi and dr chrusher. (which is one of the reasons i prefer ds9 and even voyager(after janeway got a decent haircut): they played a bit more with gender-roles, and were a bit grittier overall) and a woman who is down-dating (the pilot and the second-in command) is acceptable on this ship. all in all, i'd say it tries to give a view on how women are, rather then how men or militant feminists want them to be. i won't go pick apart all other whedon-shows, but it's basically the same idea.
BobDobolina - Ah yes, that comment sounds worse than I intended it. What I meant was supposed to be a refutation of some guy's claim that Whedon fans were basement dwellers? My response was: here are the descriptions of the Whedon fans I know. I agree with what you said about the feminism thing not being a leap forward, just that the rest are behind. In fact, this was the exact claim Joss Whedon made during his acceptance speech for an award from Equality Now. It shouldn't be revelatory to have strong female characters. That said, yes, not all vulnerable females are about depth. But these ones are. I see no female in peril fetish aspect of Whedon's shows, in fact, I have seen him deliberately explore the hypocrisy in that notion, creating characters whose sole purpose is the fool's errand pursuit of such a theme. These characters are usually disappointed and become the "rescuees" themselves. Often these characters are short lived, or, in others such as Xander, they are explored are celebrated for the heart they have, and simultaneously become frustrated and unfulfilled.
Holy f**k I can't believe I double-posted ALONG WITH Whedon-fan-guy. I'm so very sorry.
"it seems like the crowd is a little older and a little more discerning than the crowd's which accompany some other "nerd" pillars." This is exactly the sort of thing Lost fans say about themselves. To which the tempting reply is: how "discerning" can they really be, if they're Lost fans? Same goes for Buffy fans, or for that matter Harry Potter fans. Lots of older, professional and academic audiences for these products -- which just goes to show that being a lawyer doesn't make you an art critic, which should be a surprise to no-one. (Feminist intellectuals and academics are notorious suckers for Buffy, but cf. that Toni Morrison-Bill Clinton syndrome: it wasn't that Buffy or the Big Dog were any great leap forward, but rather that the rest of geekdom/politics just sucked THAT badly.) Storylines that revolve around female vulnerability aren't necessarily about "depth;" the "heroine in peril" fetish, which is deeply misogynistic (and not in a "technically, according to Marxist-feminists" way but in actual "embraced by dudes who really f**king hate women" sort of way), goes way back. Wonder Woman was originally written by a bondage fetishist specifically as a means of catering to it. Whedon's action-girl heroines aren't necessarily firmly in this territory -- but excepting Zoe from Firefly, they aren't exactly firmly outside it either.
There are no words to describe the orgasms that Saul Tigh card gave me.
"Once more with feeling isn't even a good musical. . ." I've seen more musicals than you've got pubes, buddy, I'm a bona fide flamer. AND FUCK YOU PAL!!
To the author: Hmm. I'm a die hard Whedon fan, and I do disagree with some of your points (which I'm sure you might find validating?), especially number 1. I am a tv nut. I believe TV is as important than film at this point, and that good television is becoming closer and closer to the importance of a good book. If I could write books about tv, I would. And I find many Whedon fans to be the same. The majority of people I've met who love his work are also tv nuts. They tend to approach the shows from a very intellectual view, the sort that would accompany the opinions of a film professor. The ones I've met have been well read, intelligent people who are able to view the shows critically and see the significance of every choice. We constantly discuss these shows, and the consensus among most of the Whedonites I know is that Dollhouse is a little weak right now, it has good potential in a few of the characters, but it hasn't quite gained it's footing on supporting those characters. I find Eliza to be a little weak as well, but I think that actually has more to do with an inability to feel empathy toward a shell of a person. As for the comment about the most "artistically successful" shows being centered around men, I completely agree with that. HOWEVER, I have always found that to be a problem with viewers, not with writing. It annoys me deeply that the shows people like the best are the ones about dudes. It's just a little ironic. That said, I see where you are coming from on the fake feminism argument, but I just think you're wrong. His shows attribute more depth to female characters (some of them - don't get me started on Willow) than any others, and the images you describe - of the vulnerable, defeated woman - are an important aspect of that. I believe Joss has also explored similar themes with his male characters. Off the top of my head, I can think of at least a scene with Spike, a scene with Topher, a scene with Angel, maybe even Jayne (?) in which the character is depicted broken and sobbing. I agree with you most on the killing off beloved characters point. I hate that. I usually think it's a sign of bad writing, though I forgive it in Joss as the rest warrants so much praise. I still cling to the hope that the death of some of my favorite characters had meaning and purpose, thought for some of them I'm not so sure. Also: I LOVE musicals and have seen and obsessed over hundreds. I also love Once More With Feeling. Also again: Best shows in television history: Buffy, The Wire, Deadwood. Thoughts? To the YellowDart: I'm not sure about the statement about more women dying than men. On Buffy, there are a lot more female characters than male, so that makes sense (slayerettes?). On Angel, there were 3 major losses - two were male. On Firefly - one major loss, male. To Kindahuge: If only that were true. It's almost as if Whedon nerdery is what the cool kids watch when they wanna play nerd. Perhaps I am in a unique situation, but again, the fans I know are journalists, teachers, comedians, lawyers... it seems like the crowd is a little older and a little more discerning than the crowd's which accompany some other "nerd" pillars. In fact, the sort of fan to which you refer I have found to typically scoff at Whedon shows. They simply seem to lack the patience to see what's valuable and b***h instead about the fight scenes or weapons not being cool enough. Except of course, in Angel (which is mostly a tongue-in-cheek mockery of such traits) and Firefly (which is an incredible show but, imo, was never allowed to develop into the show that it could have been - the show that Buffy was) Has anyone else noticed this?
"it seems like the crowd is a little older and a little more discerning than the crowd's which accompany some other "nerd" pillars." This is exactly the sort of thing Lost fans say about themselves. To which the tempting reply is: how "discerning" can they really be, if they're Lost fans? Same goes for Buffy fans, or for that matter Harry Potter fans. Lots of older, professional and academic audiences for these products -- which just goes to show that being a lawyer doesn't make you an art critic, which should be a surprise to no-one. (Feminist intellectuals and academics are notorious suckers for Buffy, but cf. that Toni Morrison-Bill Clinton syndrome: it wasn't that Buffy or the Big Dog were any great leap forward, but rather that the rest of geekdom/politics just sucked THAT badly.) Storylines that revolve around female vulnerability aren't necessarily about "depth;" the "heroine in peril" fetish, which is deeply misogynistic (and not in a "technically, according to Marxist-feminists" way but in actual "embraced by dudes who really f**king hate women" sort of way), goes way back. Wonder Woman was originally written by a bondage fetishist specifically as a means of catering to it. Whedon's action-girl heroines aren't necessarily firmly in this territory -- but excepting Zoe from Firefly, they aren't exactly firmly outside it either.
Also, we should note that, while Whedon is responsible for the Storm-to-Toad line, which is probably the worst line in the trilogy (and that's saying something, considering they made that third one I like to pretend doesn't exist), he also is responsible for the line where Cyclops asks how they can be sure Wolverine is Wolverine and not Mystique, and Wolverine replies, "You're a dick." And that's probably the best line in the series. So yeah, some terrible, some awesome. The man's inconsistent for sure.
Okay damn, I can't believe a dude pointed out all that misogyny before I even realized it. Then again, I didn't know he was claiming to be a feminist. Can't believe Firefly didn't even make it through a full season while Dollhouse is in its second. What is this crazy backwards world??!?!11
You lost me at dissing Dollhouse. I think it's a good show. It certainly has issues, but it has a lot of strong points, too. It's entirely unique, and not in a stupid way like Lie To Me or the Mentalist. It's unique in a way that, before I started watching it, I really didn't think it would work at all. But it has, and I still tune in every week or at least catch it online. The Wash graphic in the style of Mortal Kombat, though, is probably the best graphic I've seen. Ever.
I would trade my right nut for a second season of firefly.
in response to PissMaster: "...boning Summer Glau while she does the splits on the ceiling. "pow.... poW.......pOW....POW.....POW......POUND.....POUND.......POUND.......POUND...... PSSSsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss" all in her hair. " is the "PSSSssss..." the sounds of you busting a nut? cause it's not supposed to make a sound. or maybe it is and mine is broken. either way, i'm now Butters in that i'm bi-curious about it.
To the author: Hmm. I'm a die hard Whedon fan, and I do disagree with some of your points (which I'm sure you might find validating?), especially number 1. I am a tv nut. I believe TV is as important than film at this point, and that good television is becoming closer and closer to the importance of a good book. If I could write books about tv, I would. And I find many Whedon fans to be the same. The majority of people I've met who love his work are also tv nuts. They tend to approach the shows from a very intellectual view, the sort that would accompany the opinions of a film professor. The ones I've met have been well read, intelligent people who are able to view the shows critically and see the significance of every choice. We constantly discuss these shows, and the consensus among most of the Whedonites I know is that Dollhouse is a little weak right now, it has good potential in a few of the characters, but it hasn't quite gained it's footing on supporting those characters. I find Eliza to be a little weak as well, but I think that actually has more to do with an inability to feel empathy toward a shell of a person. As for the comment about the most "artistically successful" shows being centered around men, I completely agree with that. HOWEVER, I have always found that to be a problem with viewers, not with writing. It annoys me deeply that the shows people like the best are the ones about dudes. It's just a little ironic. That said, I see where you are coming from on the fake feminism argument, but I just think you're wrong. His shows attribute more depth to female characters (some of them - don't get me started on Willow) than any others, and the images you describe - of the vulnerable, defeated woman - are an important aspect of that. I believe Joss has also explored similar themes with his male characters. Off the top of my head, I can think of at least a scene with Spike, a scene with Topher, a scene with Angel, maybe even Jayne (?) in which the character is depicted broken and sobbing. I agree with you most on the killing off beloved characters point. I hate that. I usually think it's a sign of bad writing, though I forgive it in Joss as the rest warrants so much praise. I still cling to the hope that the death of some of my favorite characters had meaning and purpose, thought for some of them I'm not so sure. Also: I LOVE musicals and have seen and obsessed over hundreds. I also love Once More With Feeling. Also again: Best shows in television history: Buffy, The Wire, Deadwood. Thoughts? To the YellowDart: I'm not sure about the statement about more women dying than men. On Buffy, there are a lot more female characters than male, so that makes sense (slayerettes?). On Angel, there were 3 major losses - two were male. On Firefly - one major loss, male. To Kindahuge: If only that were true. It's almost as if Whedon nerdery is what the cool kids watch when they wanna play nerd. Perhaps I am in a unique situation, but again, the fans I know are journalists, teachers, comedians, lawyers... it seems like the crowd is a little older and a little more discerning than the crowd's which accompany some other "nerd" pillars. In fact, the sort of fan to which you refer I have found to typically scoff at Whedon shows. They simply seem to lack the patience to see what's valuable and b***h instead about the fight scenes or weapons not being cool enough. Except of course, in Angel (which is mostly a tongue-in-cheek mockery of such traits) and Firefly (which is an incredible show but, imo, was never allowed to develop into the show that it could have been - the show that Buffy was) Has anyone else noticed this?
Well, it's good to know you're a fan before you said all that.
The reference to Toni Morrison calling Bill Clinton "the first Black president" is spot on. But it also illustrates why some people are as fanatical about Whedon as they are, and it's the same reason Morrison was that willing to settle: the alternatives really are that bad. Whedon's Buffy/Angel-verse was schlock from stem to stern, but it had essentially nothing to compete with in terms of shows with "strong" female leads (what? Xena?) and was willing to do things verboten in other shows (actual pseudo-believable lesbians? as regular characters? ZOMG!); it found a niche and made it work, and Whedon came out smelling like a rose. Subsequent outings had the problem of being crafted for niches that don't exist. Firefly was decently-executed junk-scifi with a good ensemble cast and passable-to-good writing... but was the world really clamoring for that weird, strained "space western" setting, complete with the good guys as inheritors of a futuristic and conveniently-sanitized "Lost Cause" doing battle with Space Yankees and Space Indians? Obviously not, and thank the f**k Christ for that. Dollhouse's putative niche is even more obscure and squicky.
Sixteen flaming (in the good way) thumbs up. Whedon sucks, if you're a Whedon fan, well, your identity is its own mortal insult. You assume the role of everything being a Whedon fan includes: Basement-dwelling, mother-calling, hotpocket-gorging, fatass walking nutshot that needs to shut the f**k up and try a little harder to understand the world around you.
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Is Butch Cassidy and The Princess Bride a sequel?
I don't know about all this, all I know is that Firefly was the best t.v. show ever made and the people who canceled it are the dumbest piles of f**king s**t in existence. Had they maybe advertised it properly, we would still have it on air today. I didn't even know the s**t existed until after it was already canceled. Fucking douches.
Is Butch Cassidy and The Princess Bride a sequel?
I would imagine the worst part of being a Whedon fan would be the abundance of s**tty shows. Serenity was so cheesy I'll never again have the blue box blues.
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Reality check: FOX did not cancel your beloved Sarah Connor Chronicles to benefit Dollhouse. That's not how network TV works. SCC got a second season in spite of the poor performance of it's first, and when it continued to underperform it got s**tcanned. Likewise, Dollhouse was given a second season in spite of a lackluster first and it too will likely get axed. The point is that-like Dollhouse-SCC got a second chance, which is more than most poorly-performing shows get. Yes, I am a Whedon fan, and yes I think Dollhouse is far superior to SCC. But it's apples and oranges. If Dollhouse had never existed in the first place, SCC still would've gotten cancelled. Stop blaming Whedon for something he had nothing to do with.
Well, I guess I should be flattered you guys used my Colonel Tigh artwork in this article.. Thank goodness the great people at Battlestar-Blog.com brought it to my attention,otherwise I'd have never known. If anyone wants to check out my site, it's GrantGould.com (and my DA is grantgoboom.deviantart.com, if you want to see more BSG or Whedon-ish goodness). Figured I'd give myself a shout-out. Shamelessly. :P Grant
Best. Pokemon. Card. EVER.
Buggy cracked time stamps are buggy. Okay I'll shut up now.
I love you too, PissMaster. ...buuut not as much as I love Helo, which is why I can't watch Dollhouse. See your second last comment and replace "Summer Glau" with "Tahmoh Penikett" and yeeeaah... imma need some new clothes.
I am really confused about people saying that Eliza is a horrible actress. Where is her acting horrible? I have season 1 on Blu-Ray, can someone point me to a scene where her acting is horrible? Perhaps your idea of horrible is actually good in my book. Also, point out WHY it is horrible. I may not have your great eye for acting. I do know this, the acting on the Cinemax late night movies is pretty bad and Eliza's acting a 1000 fold better than that. Eliza is compared to the other dolls a lot. They are always fantastic and she is bad. They have not had to do as much as Eliza so the comparisons are not valid.
For a more thorough look at why Dollhouse is objectively terrible: http://www.mrdestructo.com/2009/02/dollhouse-and-joss-whedons-commitment.html http://www.mrdestructo.com/2009/04/dollhouse-update-still-misogynistic.html
I love that name on your thingy: Manitoba Fake Proxy Internet Hate Machine. That s**t is awsome.
I mean, god damn. The very first episode he's boxing with his shirt off and then floors a guy in the f**king chin WITH HIS KNEE. What the hell?! WHAT THE HELL? IS HE TRYING TO KILL ME?
I swear to you people. I swear to god and my life, on my dead mother's grave, that I tried to watch FireFly. I tried... I just couldn't finish it. I ended up getting a raging hard-on and masturbating furiously to the thought of boning Summer Glau while she does the splits on the ceiling. "pow.... poW.......pOW....POW.....POW......POUND.....POUND.......POUND.......POUND...... PSSSsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss" all in her hair.
Haha pissmaster I still cry EVERY DAMN TIME.
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Whedon has a pretty good mix of important characters that are both male and female. But ever notice how's it's almost always a woman that gets killed to drive the point home that "s**t if fo' real?": I'd list off the dead females vs. dead males, but that's spoiler-iffic. Let's just say that, off the top of my head, it's about a 4:1 ratio at best.
Fuck Joss Whedon, I'll tell you why it sucks being a J.J. Abrams fan....... Because he'll make you cry like a little b***h within the first 10 minutes of Star Trek. That fcuking bastard and his manipulative ways, I never gave a floppy dick fukc about Captain Kirk's dad, but his self sacrificing heroic death still had me crying and pissing in my popcorn. And then the Beastie Boys came on and I was like, "What the funk??? I thought this was supposed to be some nerd s**t?"
Eliza Dushku is a pretty good actor, in my view - it's just that she's regularly humiliated by the tower of awesome that is Enver Gjokaj. As for Dollhouse, I love it, but that's because I'm into things that are dark and screwed up. This does not constitute a standard Friday-night audience. I can see where you're coming from for the most part (minus the feminism bit, on account of Adelle DeWitt, every single female character in Firefly, and frankly Buffy) - but your writing style indicates you made a wrong turn on the way to Encyclopedia Dramatica.
As a Joss Whedon fan..I applaud you, everything was correct, especially Dollhouse being "a bad show with a goofy premise played way too seriously, centered around a vapid "actress" with all the personality of a petrified turd." Which is exactly what I said to my friend (who is a classic example of your #1) yesterday, minus the many f-bombs I lobbed at him Dollhouse is the worst written show on television right now and if it was a show written by a man without a legion of fangirls, would never have gotten the pilot on tv, let alone 2 seasons
yeah Oceanus, open your mouth a little more so Joss Whedon can easily glide his dick inside. What kills me is you douche f**ks think this guy would defend you like that? jesus f**king christ, get a family and defend them. goddamn i hate f**king fanboys/fangirls.
I watch Dollhouse because it's interesting; it's probably the most original show on TV. But structurally, it's very weird. Seriously, who is the protagonist? Is it Echo? If so, she's probably the least relatable protagonist in history. The audience can't get to know her, because she gets her mind wiped twice an episode. Is it Ballard? He's only onscreen for 5 minutes per episode, and he's often played for a fool. Is it Topher? No, he's too dickish. I can't think of another show with this problem.
SAUL MOTHERFUCKING TIGH YEEEEEAAAAAH BOOM (Also, a note to your art department, Saul motherf**king Tigh has brown eyes. Er.. eye.) IMMA GET A KITTEN, NAME IT SAUL TIGH, POKE ITS EYE OUT, GIVE IT A LITTLE KITTEN EYEPATCH AND MAKE IT FIGHT FOR ITS BOOZE
Canceled, not banned. Certainly not banned XD
I'm getting a little ill of people who say that Dollhouse needs to be saved. Yes, I watch it every week, but if it got canceled, I wouldn't weep for it, because honestly, it's not that great a show. There are a lot of problems with it that no one is making an attempt to fix (like Eliza Dushku's terrible acting). Why should Dollhouse be allowed to pull through when FOX is canceling other shows that are better written and acted? Because it's a Joss Whedon show? I love the guy, but he shouldn't get a free pass just because he's made other stuff that's better. If his other stuff was good, watch that. He should still be expected to turn Dollhouse into a quality product, or it should be banned.
He certainly has his faults. But "once more, with feeling" is not one of them and the rocky horror picture show is total crap. Good point about seneselessly killing of characters. I - a huge Buffy fan - hate the seventh season and the final episode in particular. He did much better with Angel without foregoing to point out the dark unfair sites of life.
I am a huge musical theatre NUT and I love once more with feeling. Some of the songs suck, but it captures the characters perfectly. And plus - Tony Head! Such an underappreciated genius. I agree though. I'm a recovering Whedonite, having found everything since Buffy really just rehashed crap. I hate dollhouse, and can only watch the Firefly movie sporadically so as to avoid dealing with the cliched setting and illogical premise. Oh, and Alien Resurrection is classic. Jeunet and the cast made Whedon's script better than it should have been. Still though... Buffy is probably one of the 5 best shows to ever air on tv.
I see you've pre-accused those who would defend Whedon of being the Nation of Islam. Good rhetorical strategy, I guess? Anyway, I agree with you on a lot of it. Whedon killing popular characters got to be a bit much and even trite by the time he killed Fred, long before he even skewered Wash. Whedon seems to be making an atheistic point that life isn't fair. However, what he doesn't recognise is that his imaginary worlds aren't atheistic. They're ruled by a cruel god that skewers people for emotional effect. I also agree about the feminism. Whedon's feminism doesn't seem to go much further than "empowerment". His metaphor for this doesn't seem to go much further than giving a young woman superpowers and having her kick people in the face (Buffy, Illyria, River, Echo, etc.). His use of witchcraft is puzzling at best, athough that might be partly Noxon's fault (yes, I said it). And Dollhouse is pretty weak. It's very poignant at times, but it's usually just flat. Dushku shows great range, though. The problem is in the premise and the lack of a strong central character (since Echo *isn't* a character). However, I disagree with you that his shows aren't really...what, exactly? Somehow, Joss Whedon shows are to something what Star Wars novels are to novels. However, this isn't at all correct. Whedon has stretched the bounds of television by finding ways to mix melodrama and science fiction while presenting important insights into life. His use of "A"-story and "B"-stories in Buffy episodes gave emotional impact to the metaphoric monster and gave his melodramatic dialogue more plausibility since it could never upstage the monster. In Angel and Firefly, he merged the metaphors and melodrama together, and made it work through appropriately timed comedy. Joss Whedon shows "really" are television shows. They're even art, or at least great storytelling. They're certainly not just Choose Your Own Adventure novels. If they were, you wouldn't be writing about them.
togashikokujin said : "I still love the s**t out of Firefly and Dr Horrible, but we stuck around at Dragon*Con for "Once More With Feeling," and we were just confused. I'm sure it didn't help not knowing anything about Buffy, but I now feel qualified to agree that it wasn't really a good musical. " "Once more with Feeling" was a great musical. It closes several storylines and brought up several new ones. It was a huge character development episode. That fact that you do not know anything about Buffy makes you unqualified to evaluate if it was good or not. It is definately not a "stand alone" episode. By the way, I was also at Dragon*Con this year. I was also at Dragon*Con last year (2008) when Nathan Fillion, Alan Tudyk, Jewel Staite and Morena Baccarin were there. They were awsome. Got all of thier autographs and saw several of thier panels.
"You have to proselytize and spring out of the corners of the internet like the Whedon Inquisition" NOBODY expects the Whedon Inquisition.
Wow, I haven't read such a hateful article for a very long time. You have *some* good points there, but this is really Taliban hateful. So you were beat up buy a Whedon fan somewhere along your childhood, right?
You know, I hate to ask, but I have to: where'd you find Spike and Angel having gax sex rendered as 16-bit art?
You should add three more. I don't think #3 and #2 covered it well enough: 0) Nothing in any way less than perfect can ever be his responsibility in the slightest -1) Anything that does actually turn out cool, even if he wasn't directly responsible, was his idea all along -2) If you don't think everything he craps out is the best movie or show that ever existed, you are just some d-bag loser that's not smart enough to enjoy "real art".
Amake, you're lying. And what's worse is that even if you weren't lying, it would still be an insult to the rest of Whedon's fans in general and fans of Dollhouse in particular. What you're basically saying is that, in order to enjoy Whedon's latest laurel-resting crapfest, you have to actually be mentally deficient in some profound way. Actually, that's what I've been saying since Firefly premiered. Carry on.
"But sometimes I just wanna sit back and watch Doogie Howser sing songs about horsies into his webcam" THIS. Dr. Horrible was like eating a bowl of fun, quirky ice cream only to discover a soul-rending c**kroach at the bottom of the bowl. Yeah, the ice cream was good, but knowing the c**kroach was there all along really diminishes the whole experience.
I do agree that he loves to kill off characters a little too much. I've noticed he links it in with people having good relationships. If someone is in a particularly good relationship, it's almost certain they are about to die. Joss doesn't like his characters being happy. He will always find a way to break couples up in the most awful ways, and if he can't, he just kills them off. It is like his trademark. I have to say I love it though. I hate shows where the main characters magically live through events that are beyond what most people would survive.
About the quality of the actress playing Echo in Dollhouse, I find it rather odd to complain about her lack of personality when whole idea is that her personality is alternatively erased and artificial. I have a condition where it's very hard for me to remember the face of a person it's called antisocial shutinitis or something), and that leads to a very strange observation: I can never recognize Echo in her various personalities. I take this to mean she employs completely different body languages and such, which you must admit would be outrageously skilled acting if it's the case.
Thank you for this article. I felt like I was living in a parallel universe where I was the only person he realized Whedon was a hack. Thank you so much. You made my week.
I don't see how showing realistic strengths and weaknesses in a female character some how goes against feminism? Would you prefer the character be a robot with no emotion to show how 'strong' she is as a woman? It just shows the human side to the character. I don't believe that having emotions makes a person weak. I think that is a very backward way of viewing things. A woman being equal to a man doesn't mean she is devoid of emotion, as men are not devoid of emotion. It's not like men never experience pain, or get upset when the person they love leaves/dies. Buffy and Angel, were in my opinion very similar, the only difference being Buffy was more of a comedy focused on a female, and Angel was more of a drama focused on a man. The only reason I can see for liking Angel vastly more than Buffy, is that you prefer drama, and in your case the male aspect. What you say seems to suggest you prefer stories focused on men? Perhaps it is because you are male (I assume) and relate to it more easily? I personally love both Buffy and Angel, each on its own merits.
Definitly an interesting article. You had several good points throughout it. As bad as JW gets at times we need to take pleasure in the simple things in life. Like Seth Green killing Whedon in a Robot Chicken episode.
Buffy shaped my teen years in a big way (don't judge. All my friends poured their energy into worshiping the backstreet boys). I'd consider myself a big Whedon fan but... yeah. Dollhouse... Why watch dollhouse when you can watch glee?
Even though I disagree with many things in this article, I won't say anything. Instead: I just linked this article to Whedonesque. Enjoy the fallout, bro.
I see what he means about killing the sympathetic characters. In Buffy, Willow girlfriend Tara was kind, innocent, never hurt anybody at all, and had finally taken back Willow, then gets shot in the chest with a stray bullet. Then Willow ends up going after the token gay slayerette with no personality other being the other girl who likes vag. Seemed unnecessary :(
Saying that TSCC is superior to Dollhouse is like saying a Macbook pro is superior to a Commodore 64....
Didn't JW killing Wash is kinda his way of saying "f**k this I'm done with this show, now there's no chance of it ever coming back"? *run to sob in a corner in a fetal position while wet* (see what I did there?)
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@IntAut I agree totally with what you said. Sarah Connor Chronicles getting canceled scarred me for life. After that and Firefly, I'm afraid to get into new shows. @Fergmaster Since forever!
Any mojo Joss Whedon might have once had has been stolen by Nathan Fillion. Castle is a pretty ho-hum concept made stellar by that dude's antics. Firefly and Serenity rocked sheep. I never found the little Buffy I saw anything other than silly, and Dollhouse was (is, I guess) embarrassing. Hmm, maybe Nathan Fillion had the mojo all along?
Since when have Joss' two most artistically successful shows been Angel and Firefly?
On the one hand, there is some stuff I agree with you about here, on the other hand, I've got to pick on this: "Joss shoots his actresses most lovingly when they're wet and crying and curled up in the fetal position, pressed up against a wall, broken, mascara running, bleeding, and reaching out. And what are they typically reaching out for? Some dude (or vampire or werewolf) and the dick he's attached to." In rebuttal of the comment can I point to all the pretty damn coolly shot fight scenes in Buffy, and the superb River fight scenes in Serenity. Yes there is plenty of 'crying River' although I love Summer Glau so much that I forgive it. But you can't dispute that the only thing that's really wrong with the 2 Serenity fight scenes is that they don't go on nearly long enough - unless you're not a big fan of those fight scenes, I guess. Equally, we had plenty of Spike all forlorn in Buffy and Angel moping in both Buffy and Angel (not a massive fan of Angel), not to mention poor one-eyed Xander. So there is balance in his loving the crying. One final thing, the studio *have* dicked around with Dollhouse, they *haven't* promoted it sufficiently (most people didn't even know the second series had started until the second week in!) and the themes of the show warrant a serious eye rather than a goofy one as the premise may initially lead you to assume. I am aware that I now sound like one of those apologist argumentative a*****es you referred to before, but I actually have enjoyed most of Dollhouse (although I would have enjoyed T:SCC more!!) and feel that given the time, it could develop into a really good show. Unfortunately, much as I think Eliza is a very pretty girl, as long as she is the lead and can't develop her range, it's not gonna manage it. If Enver Gjokaj or Amy Acker were the lead, it would rock tits!
I agree with ssddgr! this article kinda sucks ass haha
oh and Im a huge fan of TSCC even though Joss had NOTHING to do with it, just Summer Glau.
Whedon loves killing his characters. Never will forgive him for Wash. It was as if he did it just to say, hey guys, I killed Book, but I am still going to mess with you with this! Ha!
Im not sure I can be considered as a fan, but Firefly is one of my favorite shows and Serenity is one of my favorite movies. I think Firefly would have stayed fresh for another 2 seasons
I really could have gone without that last pic... I don't even know what it is, other than the obvious.
When you start an anti-Whedon article with a mistake concerning the body of his work, you kind of lose ALL credibility. And to Cherlindea: It's Rutger Hauer. NOT Howard. *eyeroll*
Also a comment on the Star Wars novels in the same vein as DamienStryker: Timothy Zahn is an excellent author, loved his Star Wars novels that I read on their own merits.
I hate Joss for killing Was and for walking away from Firefly. He could have gotten at least a TV movie or a miniseries for the Scy Fy channel to complete to story. Instead he wastes his time on that Crapfest Dollhouse(Eliza does suck). When it it gets cancelled midseason, and it will, I hope he remembers that it is karma for going back to Fox at all, I hate Fox for ditching Firefly and whay them hell would Joss ever deal with those F**kers again?
I still love the s**t out of Firefly and Dr Horrible, but we stuck around at Dragon*Con for "Once More With Feeling," and we were just confused. I'm sure it didn't help not knowing anything about Buffy, but I now feel qualified to agree that it wasn't really a good musical.
I find that I have to agree with pretty much all of this. As much as I love Firefly, I find that I'm glad it didn't go on as long as Buffy/Angel, and didn't have that drop-off.
#IntAut I feel the same way. Dollhouse bores me to no end. I'd rather pop in my Firefly Bluray and run through the whole thing for the 6x than watch a new ep of Dollhouse.
Im going to stick up for Dollhouse here, because I came across it be accident, unaware of any advance publicity, oblivious to the controversial ad breaks (I rented the DVD set), and certainly not mourning Sarah Connor, and my partner and I thoroughly enjoyed it! It's sexy, funny, and energetic. How many demands do you have to make of a TV show?! It's not art, it's entertainment.
Sadly, I think my fiance fits into most of the categories laid out here for fans of Whedon. I actually liked the Buffy movie better than the series, but that's mostly because I loathe teen angsty-drama and prefer lots of cheesy lines (Buffy the series *started out* good with the cheese, but then I think Whedon just got one f**king big ego from the success of the series and went all Melrose Place on it). Plus, the movie had Rutger Howard. Top that, b***hes! I LOVED Wash. Killing Wash was the unforgivable sin that I shall NEVER NEVER NEVER forgive Whedon for. That grade-A a*****e.
Great article with one exception: give any Star Wars novel by Matt Stover a chance. His Revenge of the Sith adaptation is not only better than the movie proper but damned good writing in its own right.
Probably the single most gratifying thing I read in this was... "Sure, the network mercilessly drowned the superior Terminator: Sarah Connor Chronicles specifically to give Dollhouse an undeserved second season, but FOX is the big bad here, FOX is the reason the show lays there like a dead fish week after week, only sporadically flickering to life, like a caveman banging rocks together might accidentally start a fire." Thank you, article writing dude, for verifying my faith that Sarah Connor was a FAR superior show and FOX killed it primarily to give Dollhouse a second season as way of an apology to us for canceling Firefly. Lame. I am a huge Buffy, Angel and Firefly fan, but Dollhouse does not make me interested in it. At all.
I've never watched any of his tv shows and I never care to.
Fanboys are the most obnoxious people on the planet. We need to put them in camps like we did the j*panese in WW2
Referencing a pop culture line isn't theft, and if it is, then tarantino deserves to be stolen from more than anyone. The section about Alien: Resurrection was one of the most gratifying things I have read in a while. Seriously, the movie sucked, and I blame Whedon. You can gold plate and polish a turd, but i the end, its still a piece of s**t.
Hee hee, Didn't agree with everything that you said, but could certainly relate to most of it! totally agree that he kills those just to get that 'wtf...sob' reaction from us - fray for me was the worst - Loo was adorable. actually kinda think that he has portrayed women in a semi-feminist way - i just don't happen to be a feminist. Nor do i believe that the only way for a woman to be happy is to cut herself off completely from fellas. When I'm upset, I turn to my fella - how is that such a huge betrayal or independence - sharing the load and all that! I liked aliens - but heck, i liked the buffy movie...just thought the series was better...way better... and as a vocal admirer, loath to say fan...i totally agree with the final point!
He wasn't wrong. He said Fans of Buffy loved Wash. Didn't say Wash was in Buffy..
Buffy fans liked him too, I guess.
..insult him "in a dream, you better wake up and apologize." resevoir dogs. classy. you steal from the best.
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